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Booking a champion
| crazyarby | Posted on 02/04/10 at 06:45:04 Okay This hit me while reading the Matt Murphy book posted on Missouri Wrestling Revival.com. In one of the sections he mentioned that: "I believe that fans pay to see the babyface pursue the title, not the babyface defend the title. Because of this, I believe the heel should be champion 90 percent of the time and I refer to title-match structure with a heel champion." While I respect his time as a pro wrestler, I submit Vince McMahon's billions prove Matt wrong. The WWF(E) always went with a babyface champion, even to this day, and they put the former NWA territories out of business. The NWA had the heel champion to sell tickets in Dallas or Atlanta or Memphis...ect. Do you book TNM with a Champion strategy in mind? Does the Heel escape the Face, or does the Face fend off the Heel? |
| Plutar | Posted on 02/04/10 at 14:50:42 I think he has a great old-school perspective. You can see this with the nwa champions. You had Harley Race or Dory Funk Jr. barging into a territory and going against the promotion's top babyface which made for an exciting match. In my opinion heel champions are always more interesting anyways, Chris Jericho made an excellent heel champ last year. Mcmahon may have made billions with a different strategy but I don't think it's a situation where there is a definite wrong or right way. It's all about building heat and making people actually care about feuds and an easy way to do that is with a face going against the impossible heel. As far as tnm goes, I've never been good at the story part of tnm and I totally break all the rules that I just mentioned since I run an unbooked circuit with title shots awarded to workers with long win streaks. This works for me and gives me hours of enjoyment but I'd never watch anything like my circuit on TV. When you take the heels and faces out of wrestling it's just another boring sport like boxing or mma. |
| TheImpalerTMX | Posted on 02/04/10 at 18:49:01 There are obviously stories to tell with both, so I don't see why the time should be divided much outside 50/50 between a face and a heel. It all depends on who you have on your roster. If you have a guy like Ricky Steamboat who uses a lot of flash pins and the like, then keeping the title off him for a while is a good idea. But once he wins it, you can switch to the stories about how this improbable champion keeps defending his title successfully. And you have multiple ways you can go with that; you can either show it was kind of a fluke by giving him a short reign or mold him into a more serious threat. I will agree to a point that if you have a face who is a huge draw you probably should minimize his time with the belt. Why? Because all titles are simply macguffins, a gimmick to tell the story. There are certain guys who don't need the belt to get over so why should they have it? Occassionally they need to get it to push the story forward, but for the most part they are better served trying to get future stars over. I think WWE books Cena well in this regard. His reigns have mostly been short and while he has been in the title scene for most of his run, he branches off to other feuds often enough - like his feud with The Miz for example. Bottom line is people these days are more paying to see the spectacle rather than certain wrestlers. In the days of the territory, I could see why you'd want a heel champ more often, but it certainly wouldn't be 90% of the time. If fans are there to see someone they like, then they are going to like them no matter what they are doing. If I'm an Undertaker fan and just came to see him wrestle, am I really going to care whether he is defending the belt or going for it? Either way Undertaker is "my guy" and I want to see him win. Period. Really though, it all depends on what you have to work with, what the nature of your fanbase is, etc. - all very situational things. There is no right or wrong answer to it, obviously. In his experience he probably just found it was easier to have a heel champion, but this is probably true of a lot of small promotions. It is much easier to get the crowd to hate someone than to love someone. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/04/10 at 23:53:12 I think it honestly just depends on your roster and the angles you're working with. Like has been said, it's all about selling your story. Like currently, Bruno Sammartino is my World champion, and has been for 2 and a half years now. He's clearly my top guy, and the running story is one of, "Who will be able to dethrone the popular champion?" Many threats come at him, come close, but ultimately fail. I think for this to work, he has to look beatable but not flukey. Meanwhile, the champion before him was Luke Graham, a heel, who held the title for a year and a half (minus Antonio Inoki's brief title reign) with a similar story of, "Who can beat this monster?" And I think it worked. I like doing chase programs more myself, with the face going after the heel. But for me, I just do what I feel makes most sense and will be most compelling at that time in my circuit. |
| LillaThrilla | Posted on 02/05/10 at 02:06:50 Face chasing a heel's title is probably more often interesting because the heel can do so many interesting things to frustrate the face and rile up the fans. That said, I'd put the heel with the belt more like 60-40. It's just really dependent on what kind of guys you have. |
| crazyarby | Posted on 02/05/10 at 04:42:44 I, personally, try to have a chase or defend philosophy one way or the other. It gets me past writers block. I run two main circuits and try to book backwards two to three months so I tried one with the heel champion and some face contenders but it felt strange that the faces never got the belt. When they did win I was trying to get the title off them and back on the heel. The faces turned into schlubs and screwjob finishes get boring after a while. The other circuit has the face champ and seems much more focused. Good guy wins, waits for next bad guy. I guess I grew up a WWF mark and that style feels better to me. I would like to see the WWE use the 90% heel champion on Smackdown. They could then move that guy to Raw to feed the Superman champ. It also creates some what-ifs: What if the WWF picked a heel champion for Hogan to chase for years rather then put the title on him? What-if Sting had a multi-year title run rather then the goofy finishes his short title regins had? |
| psz | Posted on 02/05/10 at 05:08:47 I've always kinda liked the Chase the Heel methodology, because I've never been interested in the Hulk Hogan/John Cena style of always overcoming the odds. I much preferred watching people chase Yokuzuna or Raven or Shane Douglas or Randy Orton or Chris Jericho... When I was young, I always wanted to see who would finally shut the cocky badguy up. Now the heels just tend to be better on the mic, in the ring, and in terms of character ;-> |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/05/10 at 07:17:32 Well being a heel is tons easier than being a face. It's relatively much easier to make people hate you than it is to make people like you. |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/05/10 at 14:39:45 ROH is another company who relies (almost) solely on the Face chasing the Heel psychology. If you take a look at their past and present champs, it has always been long heel reigns broken up by short face reigns. Heck, even when faces win the titles, they usually just turn heel when they get the belt (see American Dragons title win). I would love to see ROH try it the other way around for a bit, but I can't see any of the current contenders being able to pull off a long face run. Tyler Black the least of all. |
| jeff the god of biscuits | Posted on 02/05/10 at 19:59:44 I had a heel world champion for most of last year ... it produced some great matches and storylines throughout the year ... I am probably more random about face or heel ... I think in one circuit, I only have one face title holder ... I have always found the heel champion more fun, but there is a lot to be said for pushing a face champion over long periods |
| Drunken Fool | Posted on 02/15/10 at 07:19:29On 02/05/10 at 14:39:45, rey619 wrote:ROH is another company who relies (almost) solely on the Face chasing the Heel psychology. If you take a look at their past and present champs, it has always been long heel reigns broken up by short face reigns. Heck, even when faces win the titles, they usually just turn heel when they get the belt (see American Dragons title win).Oh, the Irony.. as it just seems that Tyler Black has made a heel turn just after winning the belt, LOL |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/15/10 at 07:56:55 Black could barely stay heel when he was teaming with Jimmy Jacobs.. on his own? Not seeing it.. Cena-type face overcoming the odds would suit him much better, IMO. |
| Drunken Fool | Posted on 02/16/10 at 02:24:23On 02/15/10 at 07:56:55, rey619 wrote:Black could barely stay heel when he was teaming with Jimmy Jacobs.. on his own? Not seeing it.. Cena-type face overcoming the odds would suit him much better, IMO. Yeah but can pushing a "superman" in what is supposed to be the "pure" (I hate that word) wrestling company fly with ROH's core fans? |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/16/10 at 08:23:08 Since Black has a ton of talent (as opposed to Cena), yeah.. I think so. The problem I have with Cena's superman booking isn't the fact that he is (was) unbeatable, but that after suffering a ton of damage, he just pumps up his sneakers and delivers a crowd pleasing move (Five Knuckle Shuffle) and a weak-ass transition move (fireman's carry), and actually beats people with it. Though I have a feeling that the ROH crowd loves heel champs too. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/16/10 at 17:17:42 To say Cena has no talent is blind internet Cena hate. And is "weak-ass transition move" is over with the crowd, so who cares if it's just a fireman's carry slam? The People's Elbow was just an elbowdrop with theatrics, but you can't tell me that move wasn't over huge. Plus, Cena sells tons of tickets and makes the biggest wrestling company in the world a lot of money. Tyler Black is the champion that the 400 random fringe fans of ROH who come to the shows don't even like. |
| psz | Posted on 02/16/10 at 19:40:27 I'm not exactly what you'd call a Cena fan, by any stretch... ... HOWEVER, his in-ring performances are much crisper than they used to be, he's dropped the rapper gimmick, and for the most part he just gets a few pops and wrestles. Overall, I'd say he's improved a TONNE in the last three years. Maybe not to the extent Randy Orton has (I actually enjoy Orton matches), but to say he's still the same as he was when he was first called up to Smackdown, or even pre-peck injury is hardly accurate ;-> |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/17/10 at 18:02:21 I don't hate Cena either, and I don't really care if his weak-ass transition moves are over or not. They're still weak-ass transition moves. And yes, he does the WWE formula to perfection, and has improved by leaps and bounds. He still uses a fireman's carry as a finisher. And ROH drawing 400 random fringe fans? Come on. This isn't 2004 anymore. They're wrestling at Hammerstein Ballroom in front of a packed house now. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/17/10 at 20:19:16 I've been to ROH shows. 300, 400 tops. I'm not saying ROH is bad by any means. I enjoy it from what I've seen. But they are so ridiculously a distance third promotion. Them drawing well at Hammerstein is one thing, but they don't draw anything near that most other places. |
| The TNM Members Champ | Posted on 02/17/10 at 20:30:47 Drawing a lot of fans doesn't mean you have a good product. For example, reference the RAW show from Monday. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/17/10 at 20:37:42On 02/17/10 at 20:30:47, The TNM Members Champ wrote:Drawing a lot of fans doesn't mean you have a good product. For example, reference the RAW show from Monday.It means you have a product that makes money though (at least in the case of WWE, which makes money). And just because you have a bunch of high energy spot monkeys that kick out of 20 moves a match that should be finishers doesn't mean you have a great product either. It's just all about what you as a fan are personally into. |
| Plutar | Posted on 02/17/10 at 22:48:56 I see a lot of opinions floating around here. Opinions are a lot like anuses, we all have them and most of the times they stink. |
| The TNM Members Champ | Posted on 02/18/10 at 04:01:53On 02/17/10 at 20:37:42, Snabbit888 wrote:That's not Ring of Honor whatsoever. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/18/10 at 06:12:37On 02/18/10 at 04:01:53, The TNM Members Champ wrote:It is in what I've watched. I'm not saying it's not entertaining. Just a bit ridiculous. |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/18/10 at 12:28:13On 02/18/10 at 06:12:37, Snabbit888 wrote:I mostly disagree, but I have fallen off the ROH bandwagon as well. Saw every show from 2004 through 2008. Maybe ten shows in 2010. I got confused with the TV shows and the chronology. Even though if ROH (or DGUSA) is my favorite product, I think that something in-between ROH (where wrestlers survive everything) and WWE (where grown men become knocked silly by a fireman's carry) would be perfect. I also don't like WWEs emphasis on out-of-ring-promos and segments (I have read reports stating that a 3 hour RAW contained 16 minutes of matches), but I do like well thought out storylines. So more than ROH and less than WWE. But the guy with the anuses analogy summed it up quite well. It's all about preferences. And I agree that ROH draws considerably more on the east coast. But I don't agree that money = quality. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 02/18/10 at 17:52:13 I never said that money = quality. It doesn't. Otherwise the Twilight movies wouldn't be so successful. But just because I think New Moon is a shitty movie doesn't mean that it was a failure. Just because I think the script could have been increasingly better in Avatar doesn't mean that movie failed. |
| TheImpalerTMX | Posted on 02/18/10 at 19:05:48 I don't understand why people complain about weak finishers in a product that requires the suspension of disbelief to begin with. Well, I get it, but it is really a silly thing to get worked up about. I can understand if there are moves in a guys moveset that look like they hurt more than a wrestler's finisher and having a small issue with that. For example, I think MVP should be using the Yakuza kick over his current finisher because it has more impact. In John Cena's moveset a fireman's carry slam is actually one of his more impactful moves. And keep in mind it is built up that he can do it to anyone, no matter how big they are. Once you can start attaching such properties to a move I say you have an effective finisher. Hogan's legdrop worked (in the 80's mind you) because it was still a near "300 lbs." guy jumping on top of you. Sometimes less is more and there are certain guys who can use more basic moves as finishers because of certain attributes that individual possesses. Besides, would it really make sense for a guy who wrestles in jeans to have a moonsault or a Northern Lights suplex as his finisher? |
| psz | Posted on 02/19/10 at 01:22:40 Seriously... Let's look at some of the "classic" finishers... Hogan's Leg Drop: Near 300lb guy's upper leg lands on your chest. Well, his leg does. It's probably a heavy leg, but not 300lbs... Superkick: A single savat kick to your jaw... Forget the fact that most guys take MULTIPLE punches to the jaw throughout a match, not to mention various kicks and stomps... Terry Funk's Spinning Toe Hold: He twists your ankle/applies pressure to your shin, lets it go, and twists it again Jum Duggan's Football Tackle/shoulder block: He runs at you and hits you with his shoulder... About as hard as every other move throughout the match... Actually, by starting in a three point stance, he's got LESS momentum than, say, coming off the ropes. JYD's headbutt: He was on all fours and ran into your head with his... not much momentum there. Shane Douglas' Belly to Belly Suplex: Taz(z) threw those as OPENING moves, hell with a finisher. A German suplex at least drops you on your neck. The Ultimate Warrior's Splash: Don't think I need to comment on that one ;-> Anyone using a Full Nelson: Seriously? Pull your shoulders back, and put your arms up while dropping to the ground. You'll be out in a second or two, with nothing more than a bruise or two on your elbows on the way down. Cean's FU (I hate the new name) actually has SOME impact (and for a BIG guy, that's alot of weight coming down), so it's at least a viable as the rest. The point is, whether a move would actually HURT more than another move is a moot point: Does the crowd buy it (or at least mark out to it)? That's the ONLY thing wrestlers/promotions/announcers are worried about. |
| rey619 | Posted on 02/19/10 at 21:48:28 I agree with everything except for the superkick. Properly executed and sold, the superkick looks awesome. I understand that the WWE Universe buys these moves, its just that *I* don't buy them. Being in the business myself, I know that our fans wouldn't buy me doing a fireman's carry, a leg drop or something else like a finisher. Bear in mind, this is not an ROH-like crowd. I've lost to to a second rope leg drop (this was from a 325 pounder, but still). I never understood why Cena couldn't use a DVD. It's slightly more difficult than a fireman's carry, but looks ten times more painful. And even though I may come off as a Cena hater, I'm not. I actually think he gets a lot of undeserved criticism. It's the WWE product I don't care much for. But that's a discussion for another time and has, as Plutar eloquently put it, to do with anuses. |
| crazyarby | Posted on 02/20/10 at 05:08:02On 02/19/10 at 21:48:28, rey619 wrote:I agree with everything except for the superkick. Properly executed and sold, the superkick looks awesome. I understand that the WWE Universe buys these moves, its just that *I* don't buy them. Being in the business myself, I know that our fans wouldn't buy me doing a fireman's carry, a leg drop or something else like a finisher.I would say the HBK Superkick is one of the main reasons Shawn Michaels has lasted so long at the top. His original move was a leg hook suplex called either a Teardrop Suplex or a fisherman suplex (different from what I thought a fisherman was). For a small guy he was limited to who he could do this to. But the superkick he can use at anytime, at any point in the match anywhere in the arena and it is thigh-slapping good. I think Cena's FU is supposed to be DVD like, but why use a dangerous move like that when the fireman's carry is over. I dislike most of the WWE finishers but they all seem to be easy bumps to take to minimize the pounding night after night. The Pedigree is probably the most dangerous to take and I have never liked that move. The trick is to find one that looks great but is easy to deliver and easy to take. The Stone Cold Stunner pops to mind. The best Finisher, and the worst, is the Canadian Destroyer. Amazing to see but what major star is going to let Williams go over with that move. He can only use it on smaller guys and it looks scary to take if one dosen't do it right. Finshers. Another awesome part of pro wrestling. |
| crazyarby | Posted on 02/20/10 at 05:11:17 From http://www.oowrestling.com/columns/ctb/20060317.shtml How to make Cena look stronger. All of the RAW and Smackdown! faces are captured and taken to Cloud City by Darth Vader and Boba Fett. John Cena flies to Bespin on Falcor from The Neverending Story; and then uses Falcor as dental floss because he had bits of the Colombian drug lords he ate for breakfast stuck in his teeth. He finds Vader and Boba Fett in the carbon freezing chamber where he promptly rhymes "Boba Fett" with "loads-of-head," shooting Boba's colon out through his ears, sending a shower of blood out the bottom of his helmet. Cena grabs C-3PO's golden codpiece, and it magically turns into a lightsaber with which Cena duels Vader. Cena tricks Vader by voluntarily freezing himself in carbonite, busting out of it, and no-selling the hibernation sickness. Vader and Cena continue to sword fight out onto a tiny bridge over a huge pit where Cena gets his hand cut off by Vader (which Cena also no-sells), waves his not-severed hand in front of his face, and then FUs Darth Vader into the pit. Afterwards, John Cena rescues all of the WWE wrestlers, pins them all in a handicap match, has a three-way with Christy Hemme and Lando Calrissian, and then no-sells the herpes. — angstboy |
| fwaroc | Posted on 02/23/10 at 16:32:52 I have to make a quick comment here about the "classic" finishers. Remember, classic finishers were done in a time where saying wrestling was staged was taboo to wrestling fans. These moves were supposed to stun someone long enough to pin them not kill them like they do now. I don't remember too many feds where a closed fist, throwing someone over the top rope or using the steps or ringposts were even legal. Now you see it all the time. The way wrestling (or sports entertainment now) has changed has changed the way we view these finishers. Remember, these guys used to be in the 230-240 pound range and seeing a 300 pounder was like watching a mountain. Now the average wrestler is what? 280, 290 now? I don't get to watch much wrestling anymore but how often do you see that doesn't end with a finisher? Heck, it's gotten so sloppy now that they don't even have to attempt to put shoulders down anymore. It's more about show than believability now. I'd rather see any strong style events over sports entertainment any day. As far as the face chasing the heel. I completely disagree with Matt. Most of us got tired of the time limit/double countout endings where the heel would always keep the belt (Ric Flair/Nikita Koloff are the only exceptions.) It got boring and predictable and made us not want to watch much less pay money. Doing it once in a while was fine. Screwjobs though were awesome (minus anything involving Sid Vicious), and I really miss those, especially managers like Mr. Fuji, Slick, Heenan that always stuck their noses in. Dangit, now i'm gonna have to go back and watch some old wrestling tapes. Thanks alot guys :P |
| Drunken Fool | Posted on 03/12/10 at 15:10:13On 02/23/10 at 16:32:52, fwaroc wrote:I have to make a quick comment here about the "classic" finishers. Remember, classic finishers were done in a time where saying wrestling was staged was taboo to wrestling fans. These moves were supposed to stun someone long enough to pin them not kill them like they do now. I don't remember too many feds where a closed fist, throwing someone over the top rope or using the steps or ringposts were even legal. Now you see it all the time. The way wrestling (or sports entertainment now) has changed has changed the way we view these finishers. Remember, these guys used to be in the 230-240 pound range and seeing a 300 pounder was like watching a mountain. Now the average wrestler is what? 280, 290 now? I don't get to watch much wrestling anymore but how often do you see that doesn't end with a finisher? Heck, it's gotten so sloppy now that they don't even have to attempt to put shoulders down anymore. It's more about show than believability now. I'd rather see any strong style events over sports entertainment any day.All that maybe true about mainstream promotions but can you really say that about Puroresu and Indy promotions? |
| LillaThrilla | Posted on 03/17/10 at 02:01:28On 03/12/10 at 15:10:13, Drunken Fool wrote:All that maybe true about mainstream promotions but can you really say that about Puroresu and Indy promotions?Puro (and Lucha) are different countries and they were and are booked differently than the major US promotions. Indys sometimes follow their own path, especially nowadays. |