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Organizing the Move Database

UnrightPosted on 06/06/07 at 00:47:57

Alright, I've downloaded data from too many people and I think things are getting ridiculous...

Right now I'm tackling elbowdrops.. In my database I've got (damage in parenthesis):

1 2nd-rope elbow drop (35)
2 corkscrew elbow drop (10)
3 diving elbow drop (120)
4 elbow drop (40)
5 elbowdrop (40)
6 elbowdrop from the second turnbuckle (110)
7 flying elbowdrop (120)
8 inverted facelock elbowdrop (100)
9 Panty Drop Elbow (100)
10 reverse flying elbowdrop (130)
11 running elbowdrop (50)
12 series of elbowdrops to the knee (30)
13 slingshot elbowdrop (60)
14 spinning elbow drop (50)
15 spinning elbowdrop (50)

Giving the damage chart in the TNM Intellihelp(tm), I think I'm only going to keep the following (new damage):

  • elbowdrop (35) {combines 4,5,9,11,12}
  • corkscrew elbowdrop (60) {2,14,15}
  • diving elbowdrop (55) {1,3,6,7,10,13}

    Issues:
  • For whatever reason "inverted facelock elbowdrop" sounds like someone's finishing move, or like it goes by another name. It's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to remember. Any help?
    • AzraelPosted on 06/06/07 at 01:23:16

    Inverted facelock elbowdrop sounds like the Old School Expulsion.
    Critic of the DawnPosted on 06/06/07 at 04:47:17

    The Inverted Facelock Elbowdrop would also be The Eye of the Hurricane, which was (one of) The Hurricane's (many) finishers.

    Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
    triad4evrPosted on 06/06/07 at 05:57:49

    It sounds like you should keep one flying and/pr second or top rope version for 100ish damage in addition to the other three. But maybe that's just me.
    PulsarPosted on 06/06/07 at 06:56:26

    ALso, it was The Final cut used by the Big show
    Memphis_VicePosted on 06/06/07 at 09:53:23

    This is an awesome project that the TNM community badly needs! Thanks a ton! I must ask, how will Joe User implement the finished product? How are you going about your exploration and editing?

    I wish I had the time and focus to make a plugin for this..something like a Weight Class Wizard-style interface would be bomb-diggity for tidying up the various databases.

    I'm rather intimidated by the Moves Database. The wildly varying move damages had convinced me that I have no idea what a given move's damage should be...so I find this post educational.

    And while we're on the subject, is it just me or does the Database Cleaner not catch all instances of moves that are not used by any wrestlers? After a new round of imports, I was approaching the hard limit of 999 moves, so I ran Database Cleaner. I still found several moves that TNM did not ask me to replace with another move from the database.
    UnrightPosted on 06/06/07 at 15:21:33


  • Steve Corino's Old School Expulsion
  • The Hurricane's Eye of the Hurricane
  • The Big Show's Final Cut
    • Awesome! Thanks! It was the Hurricane I was thinking of, although my mind kept insisting it was one of the Hardys. I haven't watched enough Corino, and I didn't know that Big Show did it, so cool. Thanks again.

    On 06/06/07 at 05:57:49, triad4evr wrote:It sounds like you should keep one flying and/pr second or top rope version for 100ish damage in addition to the other three. But maybe that's just me.
    I'm still kinda debating that, actually.. An elbowdrop never really seems that devastating to me, even the 2nd-rope one.

    But I guess people like Randy Savage and Shawn Michaels have ended match with a well-timed flying elbowdrop. So how about:

  • flying elbowdrop (75)

    --- For comparison, TNM suggests that a choke slam should have a damage of 70.

    On 06/06/07 at 09:53:23, Memphis_Vice wrote:This is an awesome project that the TNM community badly needs! Thanks a ton! I must ask, how will Joe User implement the finished product? How are you going about your exploration and editing?
    Well.. I hadn't got that far yet. TNM is great in that it lets you import other people wrestlers. But it has the downside of copying over any previous data (such as moves). So since starting on this project, I'm not importing anything directly into my TNM. Instead I'll be opening a second TNM in a second window and just creating the wrestler by manually re-creating them.

    I just kinda made this topic to solicit any advise I could get along the way. I guess I'll update it as I go if other people want to clean up as they go as well.

    I'm rather intimidated by the Moves Database. The wildly varying move damages had convinced me that I have no idea what a given move's damage should be...so I find this post educational.
    When you go to edit a move, type in a question mark, then  'd' and you'll get the rough guide that I'm using.
    • triad4evrPosted on 06/07/07 at 00:04:38

    I wonder if there isn't a way for that feature to be turned off- the one where it replaces existing moves with ones it imports. Would be nice if it would at least ask! Or if there was a flag that you could just turn all the way off...

    But I do agree and have been petitioning for for quite some time- a master TNM moves list that is the "standard" version of all the moves, checked for quality and counters and whatnot.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/05/07 at 10:43:14

    I agree that this has got to be done. However, it will take a lot of time and manpower, which is probably why a project of this magnitude has not been undertaken before. I don't mind kicking things off soon, but I'll need a lot of help and input from you guys.

    What's the best way to do it? Produce a moves list along with damage, counters etc.? Let me know and I'll get things started with the numbers and "a" (seems like the best place to start,  ;) ) and I'll post the list here.

    http://www.tnmuk.com
    JakePosted on 07/05/07 at 16:08:49

    The move database is in desperate need of cleaning up.

    I've got plenty of free time (for the foreseeable future) so I'd have no problem with doing any creating/editing.

    But here's another query:

    How do we go about with names? Certain moves have more than one name (i.e. - double underhook suplex = butterfly suplex).

    I say before we even begin listing moves, we should come up with some rules and guidelines.

    I'll try and think of some and edit later.
    UnrightPosted on 07/05/07 at 16:34:03

    I've found Wikipedia to have a pretty good listing of most moves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_holds
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_attacks
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_throws
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_aerial_techniques
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suplex
    And even double-team moves
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_double-team_maneuvers

    They provide a bit better descriptions and are organized a lot better than the Big, Big Book of Wrestling Moves

    I'd say the two main issues I've come across have been:

  • Naming (like Jake said) -- I generally prefer the more technical name (i.e. double underhook suplex) and prefer to customize what an individual wrestler might call it in the Special Move Wizard plugin.
  • Damage scores -- Like anything else in wrestling this is hard to measure. The ? function in TNM says that an Asai Moonsault does 120 damage and a choke slam does 70. That seems backwards to me. Strikes and slams I can rank pretty well, but the flippity moves are tough for me.
  • Defensive moves (Side Step, Kick-off, push-off, etc..) shouldn't be ignored. I noticed Side Step did 60 damage and the May End Match flag was checked.. That can't be right...
    • JakePosted on 07/05/07 at 17:02:08

    Hmm, Oliver should divulge the secrets of the MOVES.DAT file, so maybe the impletation of these moves could be made easier (i.e. someone could create a plugin)?
    JakePosted on 07/05/07 at 17:05:05

    Speaking of "May End Match"... are we only going to use this option for pinning and/or submission manuevers?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/05/07 at 20:18:43

    http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls

    I've started compiling the move list. You can check it out at the link above. This is how it appears in my TNM, so let's discuss what needs changed/fixed!
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/05/07 at 23:47:19

    We tried to do something like this awhile back with the, but it sort of fizzled then got overshadowed by the launch of TNM7 SE.

    The Moves and Dives lists on TNM 3:16 came about from that project.  Not alot was changed except for a relatively arbitrary chosing of what the "official" names were and a few damage and counter tweaks.  Still, I recommend it highly as a starting point.

    Good to see it get revived.

    FYI - quick links:
    http://joshism.net/tnm/moves.html
    http://joshism.net/tnm/dives.html

    On 06/06/07 at 00:47:57, Unright wrote:1 2nd-rope elbow drop (35)
    2 corkscrew elbow drop (10)
    3 diving elbow drop (120)
    4 elbow drop (40)
    5 elbowdrop (40)
    6 elbowdrop from the second turnbuckle (110)
    7 flying elbowdrop (120)
    8 inverted facelock elbowdrop (100)
    9 Panty Drop Elbow (100)
    10 reverse flying elbowdrop (130)
    11 running elbowdrop (50)
    12 series of elbowdrops to the knee (30)
    13 slingshot elbowdrop (60)
    14 spinning elbow drop (50)
    15 spinning elbowdrop (50)
    I'm a fan of "elbowdrop" over "elbow drop" in all instances.

    Flying elbowdrop = diving elbowdrop = Panty Drop Elbow (that was someone's ECW finisher).

    Naming: I generally prefer the technical name unless its something overly verbose or in some instances if its simply very very well known by its non-technical name.
    UnrightPosted on 07/06/07 at 00:19:00

    Ok.  By your Excel sheet, I'm guessing we're just agreeing on the names, damage, and Counters 1&2 for now. The other fields will come later, yes? Going down the list...

    The 6-1-9 should probably be called by it's proper name, the tiger feint kick. Counter 2 could be "Side Step"

    The Ace Crusher could be changed to "cutter".

    The achilles tendon hold's damage reduced to 45. Kick-off as Counter 1. Should Achilles be capitalized?

    Wikipedia has the default name of the Air Raid Crash as the kryptonite krunch. Maybe drop the damage to 110 and the on the knee variation getting the 120?

    The Air Sabu is really just a flying spinning heel kick to someone in the corner. We could rename it that and make sure to check that it can be done with a chair. Duck down would be another good default counter.

    Airplane spin damage can come way down. I don't think it really hurts anyone. Something like 30? With the toss variation getting a 45?

    Amaze Impact -- Damn! Who does that? Probably should change it to the more generic name. Sounds painful, up the damage to 100?

    Wiki has the Olympic Slam as the name. I guess it's a little more generic. But it's a toss-up. The eye gouge counter might be better as a heel specific counter, though.

    The ankle lock has really been pushed as a lethal move in pro wrestling. Could probably up the damage to 90. I think I had about 5 variations of this move name in my database.

    The Arabian Facebuster is another move that gets it's name from the fact that it's chair-assisted. But that doesn't always make sense in the confines of TNM. I vote to change it to "diving legdrop" with "can be done with a chair" checked off. Damage halved to about 65.

    The arm bite should have some sort of counter like punch or headbutt.

    arm trap face first power bomb -- ?? Don't know what that is..

    The arm trap shoulder neckbreaker could probably by simplified to just arm trap neckbreaker. I guess Regal also calls it the Regal Cutter. Drop to about 65 damage?

    Add a chop as a 2nd counter to the arm wringer?

    Wiki brings up an armbar as what I pictured an arm grapevine being. Could the armbar move and the arm grapevine be combined into one move? With a damage of... 45? Also, the armbar takedown is the same as a single-arm DDT, so that's a redundancy that can be eliminated.

    The armlock hammerlock submission could be renamed to just 'hammerlock'. Needs a back elbow as a counter, or possibly a single-leg takedown.

    I'm sure armlock leglock submission has a better name. It's so generic sounding, I really don't know what it is.

    Who does the Asai/Dragon DDT? do you have a description of it? Is it the same as the Asai moonsault into an inverted DDT?

    The Asai moonsault bodyblock could be combined with Asai moonsault and the damage reduced to 100.

    Should we rename the Ass Punch to a "punch to the ass" to fit with the other punches?  ::) I vote to reduce the damage to 20-25 or so. It sounds like more of a novelty or taunt than a lethal move, but than I haven't watched any IWS.

    The damage on the Avalanche seems a little high. 90 sound good?

    The Aztecan Suplex could be renamed to a cross-arm German suplex, which is more visually descriptive. The damage could be reduced to about 95.

    triad4evrPosted on 07/06/07 at 02:36:10

    Is there a version of this sheet someplace that the general population can look at? I'm quite interested in helping at least a little- and, of course, I'm very interested in the final product. Link, maybe? Thanks!

    -Jeff
    UnrightPosted on 07/06/07 at 04:51:01

    Triad - Yeah, just check King of Old School's Post.

    Or just download this Excel sheet: http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls

    We've only just begun.
    CarlzillaPosted on 07/06/07 at 08:05:48

    Takeshi Morishima does the Amaze Impact. I'm pretty sure he's the only guy who's done it regularly, so calling it the Amaze Impact is probably ok.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/07/07 at 00:03:44

    To open a can of worms:

    elbow smash or elbowsmash?

    On 07/06/07 at 00:19:00, Unright wrote:The Ace Crusher could be changed to "cutter".
    Isn't an Ace Crusher one-handed and a Diamond Cutter done with two hands?

    FWIW, I like the Ace Crusher name myself.

    Who does the Asai/Dragon DDT?
    Ultimo Dragon? (just a guess)

    As far as "Ass Punch", I would actually vore for "punch to the butt".
    triad4evrPosted on 07/07/07 at 01:14:12

    Thanks for the link- I eagerly await the finished product! Now if only Ollie would give us the much-needed Moves Wizard so we could bring them all up in a WCW-style interface, I would be absolutely giddy. Well, maybe not "absolutely" but at least sorta' giddy.
    UnrightPosted on 07/07/07 at 02:03:23

    On 07/07/07 at 00:03:44, LillaThrilla wrote:Isn't an Ace Crusher one-handed and a Diamond Cutter done with two hands?
    I think there was some discussion on that a while back. A cutter is with two hands, a stunner is with one. There's also all sorts of variations (jumping stunner, high-end cutter, etc..)

    FWIW, I like the Ace Crusher name myself.Eh.. After the Special Move Wizard plugin came out, I sorta just prefer to give the move database more generic names and let individuals have individual names for moves.

    The problem with named moves like the Ace Crusher is that some people might not know what they are. Younger wrestling fans probably would recognize it as a Stone Cold Stunner and have no idea who Johnny Ace is.

    Oh, and I prefer elbowsmash.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/07/07 at 11:44:14

    On 07/06/07 at 00:19:00, Unright wrote:Ok. By your Excel sheet, I'm guessing we're just agreeing on the names, damage, and Counters 1&2 for now. The other fields will come later, yes? Going down the list...

    The 6-1-9 should probably be called by it's proper name, the tiger feint kick. Counter 2 could be "Side Step"

    The Ace Crusher could be changed to "cutter".

    The achilles tendon hold's damage reduced to 45. Kick-off as Counter 1. Should Achilles be capitalized?

    Wikipedia has the default name of the Air Raid Crash as the kryptonite krunch. Maybe drop the damage to 110 and the on the knee variation getting the 120?

    The Air Sabu is really just a flying spinning heel kick to someone in the corner. We could rename it that and make sure to check that it can be done with a chair. Duck down would be another good default counter.

    Airplane spin damage can come way down. I don't think it really hurts anyone. Something like 30? With the toss variation getting a 45?

    Amaze Impact -- Damn! Who does that? Probably should change it to the more generic name. Sounds painful, up the damage to 100?

    Wiki has the Olympic Slam as the name. I guess it's a little more generic. But it's a toss-up. The eye gouge counter might be better as a heel specific counter, though.

    The ankle lock has really been pushed as a lethal move in pro wrestling. Could probably up the damage to 90. I think I had about 5 variations of this move name in my database.

    The Arabian Facebuster is another move that gets it's name from the fact that it's chair-assisted. But that doesn't always make sense in the confines of TNM. I vote to change it to "diving legdrop" with "can be done with a chair" checked off. Damage halved to about 65.

    The arm bite should have some sort of counter like punch or headbutt.

    arm trap face first power bomb -- ?? Don't know what that is..

    The arm trap shoulder neckbreaker could probably by simplified to just arm trap neckbreaker. I guess Regal also calls it the Regal Cutter. Drop to about 65 damage?

    Add a chop as a 2nd counter to the arm wringer?

    Wiki brings up an armbar as what I pictured an arm grapevine being. Could the armbar move and the arm grapevine be combined into one move? With a damage of... 45? Also, the armbar takedown is the same as a single-arm DDT, so that's a redundancy that can be eliminated.

    The armlock hammerlock submission could be renamed to just 'hammerlock'. Needs a back elbow as a counter, or possibly a single-leg takedown.

    I'm sure armlock leglock submission has a better name. It's so generic sounding, I really don't know what it is.

    Who does the Asai/Dragon DDT? do you have a description of it? Is it the same as the Asai moonsault into an inverted DDT?

    The Asai moonsault bodyblock could be combined with Asai moonsault and the damage reduced to 100.

    Should we rename the Ass Punch to a "punch to the ass" to fit with the other punches? ::) I vote to reduce the damage to 20-25 or so. It sounds like more of a novelty or taunt than a lethal move, but than I haven't watched any IWS.

    The damage on the Avalanche seems a little high. 90 sound good?

    The Aztecan Suplex could be renamed to a cross-arm German suplex, which is more visually descriptive. The damage could be reduced to about 95.

    I think I'll keep the 6-1-9 and Ace Crusher as move names for now. Angle Slam is fine as well. Arm trap face first power bomb will be deleted. Asai DDT is a standing sliced bread #2, as done by Ultimo Dragon. I think Ass Punch should stay as it's the official name of the move and it's only done by Beef Wellington. I've emailed Oliver for clarification over the armlock/hammerlock/leglock variants.

    I have implimented everything else that has been discussed. Expect an updated list, along with "B", very soon.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/07/07 at 11:45:45

    By the way, is an arm wringer the same as a standing wristlock?
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/07/07 at 15:36:12

    Angle Slam = Olympic Slam = twisting fireman's carry slam?

    On 07/07/07 at 02:03:23, Unright wrote:I think there was some discussion on that a while back. A cutter is with two hands, a stunner is with one. There's also all sorts of variations (jumping stunner, high-end cutter, etc..)
    I thought a Stunner was a jawbreaker not an Ace Crusher?
    AzraelPosted on 07/07/07 at 16:35:04

    I know CIMA at least used an ass punch as well.

    Standing wristlocks are not the same as arm wringers (the wristlock is the second part of the arm wringer).

    Looking at your list, the only nitpicky point I have is that a Lionsault is not an Asai moonsault. Asai moonsaults are done against standing people, while springboard moonsaults are done against people on the mat.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/07/07 at 16:55:53

    On 07/07/07 at 16:35:04, Azrael wrote:Asai moonsaults are done against standing people, while springboard moonsaults are done against people on the mat.
    Surely this would be an Asai moonsault bodyblock?
    JakePosted on 07/07/07 at 17:24:00

    Simply change the options of the Springboard Moonsault.

    Opponent Must Be On: [Any]
    Brings Down Opponent: [X]
    Automatic Pinfall Attempt: [X]

    Counters: roll away, side step

    Then use the Special Move Wizard to rename it to Lionsault or Asai Moonsault or whatever at your convenience.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/07/07 at 17:46:12

    Just to make sure I understand the Asai moonsault vs Asai moonsault bodyblock vs springboard moonsault vs springboard moonsault bodyblock debate:

    Asai moonsault = off ropes on to standing opponent
    Asai moonsault bodyblock = off ropes on to standing opponent but turning perpendicular to them in mid-air
    springboard moonsault / Lionsault = off ropes on to mat
    springboard moonsault bodyblock = same as Asai moonsault bodyblock

    Is that all correct?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/07/07 at 17:56:51

    Thanks for all your help guys. You can check out where we are now below:

    http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls  
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/07/07 at 18:08:58

    Check out this site for videos and descriptions of moves:

    http://www.wrestlingencyclopedia.com/dictmoves.html
    UnrightPosted on 07/08/07 at 07:00:43

    Baba chop: 10 damage? I'd rate it at least at 25. Other names include overhead chop, brain chop, or tomahawk.

    The kick damages seem to be all over the place. To me it makes sense that kicks do more damage than strikes. Punches should range from 20 to 35, while kicks range from 35 to 50? What does everyone think?

    The back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are essentially the same move, no? The backdrop driver should have "High angle belly-to-back suplex" as an alternate name. Wikipedia seems to want to list the backdrop suplex as also being a (belly to) back suplex. Is it wrong, or do you have a difference in mind?

    Backspin armdrag should probably be upped to 30 to be on par with a regular armdrag.

    Backspin DDT seems a little too powerful. Drop to 100?

    Big Leg Drop... Is that just there to give Hogan's finisher more umph? Is it necessary? I was under the impression that finishers were just about equaly powerful and the "Similar To" field was just to give TNM the circumstances in which it's applied.

    Blue Thunder Bomb - Same as a Blue Thunder Driver? (aka Spin-out Powerbomb or Kikuchi's Fireball Bomb?) Could probably drop the damage to 90.

    Is a bodytrap cradle different from an inside cradle? or a schoolboy rollup?

    Border City Stretch's official technical name is "chickenwing over the shoulder crossface". But this is one of those cases where the rename is better.

    The Buff blockbuster can be renamed as a flying neckbreaker as it seems to be getting more common.

    Bullet dropkick -- Is this like a missile dropkick?

    butt-bump could also be named a "hip attack", but that might be misconstrued as an attack on a hip instead of an attack using the hip. Keep it butt-bump..

    I'll check over the "c"'s tomorrow. I'm too tired now..
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/08/07 at 15:38:54

    On 07/08/07 at 07:00:43, Unright wrote:Baba chop: 10 damage? I'd rate it at least at 25. Other names include overhead chop, brain chop, or tomahawk.
    Is a Baba chop really that different from a regular chop?

    The kick damages seem to be all over the place. To me it makes sense that kicks do more damage than strikes. Punches should range from 20 to 35, while kicks range from 35 to 50? What does everyone think?
    Superkick should probably be the exception to that since its been a finisher for so many, but otherwise yeah that sounds about right.

    The back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are essentially the same move, no? The backdrop driver should have "High angle belly-to-back suplex" as an alternate name. Wikipedia seems to want to list the backdrop suplex as also being a (belly to) back suplex. Is it wrong, or do you have a difference in mind?
    We'd previously combined backdrop suplex with belly-to-back suplex so it works for me.

    Big Leg Drop... Is that just there to give Hogan's finisher more umph? Is it necessary? I was under the impression that finishers were just about equaly powerful and the "Similar To" field was just to give TNM the circumstances in which it's applied.
    Yeah, this should just be combined with legdrop.

    Border City Stretch's official technical name is "chickenwing over the shoulder crossface". But this is one of those cases where the rename is better.
    Yeah, that's pretty wordy.

    Who does that anyway?

    The Buff blockbuster can be renamed as a flying neckbreaker as it seems to be getting more common.
    Yes.

    butt-bump could also be named a "hip attack", but that might be misconstrued as an attack on a hip instead of an attack using the hip. Keep it butt-bump..
    Yeah, my list has hip attack as an alt name for butt bump.  I like butt bump cause its usually used by big guys so its a little more descriptive. :P
    mamushiPosted on 07/08/07 at 16:57:10

    Who does that anyway?
    Alex Shelley
    AzraelPosted on 07/08/07 at 17:18:06

    The back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are essentially the same move, no? The backdrop driver should have "High angle belly-to-back suplex" as an alternate name. Wikipedia seems to want to list the backdrop suplex as also being a (belly to) back suplex. Is it wrong, or do you have a difference in mind?
    They're similar, but they start out differently. With the back suplex, one arm is around the waist, one is under a leg (Ric Flair used to use it to set up the Figure Four), and with a belly-to-back, both arms around the waist. I wouldn't have a real problem with combining them except it seems that belly-to-back suplexes would do more damage.

    Blue Thunder Bomb - Same as a Blue Thunder Driver? (aka Spin-out Powerbomb or Kikuchi's Fireball Bomb?) Could probably drop the damage to 90.
    Yes to both.

    The Buff blockbuster can be renamed as a flying neckbreaker as it seems to be getting more common.
    Yeah, this could be combined with flying somersault neckbreaker.

    Is a Baba chop really that different from a regular chop?
    Yeah, it's a chop to the top of the head, so it should be more damaging than a regular chop. It's like Great Khali's brain strike if he was using a chop instead of a fist.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/08/07 at 19:19:14

    Jumping ahead a little bit but I have a question based on watching UFC last night:

    Is a dragon sleeper the same as a guillotine choke?

    Also, should all kicks (other than low kicks / kicks to the leg) have single leg takedown listed as a shooter-specific counter?

    On 07/06/07 at 00:19:00, Unright wrote:Wiki brings up an armbar as what I pictured an arm grapevine being. Could the armbar move and the arm grapevine be combined into one move? With a damage of... 45? Also, the armbar takedown is the same as a single-arm DDT, so that's a redundancy that can be eliminated.
    I thought a plain ol DDT = single arm DDT?

    Also, per my notes, arm grapevine = short arm scissors.

    The armlock hammerlock submission could be renamed to just 'hammerlock'. Needs a back elbow as a counter, or possibly a single-leg takedown.

    I'm sure armlock leglock submission has a better name. It's so generic sounding, I really don't know what it is.
    Per my notes, armlock leglock submission = armlock hammerlock. And that's not the same as a hammerlock.

    IIRC, a hammerlock is that thing where you pin the guy's arm behind his back. Armlock leglock/hammerlock involves the opponent on the mat being leglocked and armlocked/hammerlocked at the same time.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/08/07 at 20:07:44

    Just looking over my list regarding splash variants, here's what I have:

    450 splash (aka Phoenix Splash / Firebird Splash) = 125
    falling splash = 140
    flying somersault splash = 120
    flying splash (flying bodypress / diving splash) = 180
    frog splash = 180
    slingshot splash (slingshot bodypress) = 100
    somersault splash = 100
    splash (splash / Big Splash) = 100
    splash from the second rope (Vader Bomb) = 140
    springboard somersault splash = 120
    springboard splash = 130
    twisting 450 splash = 180

    flying sitdown splash = 160
    sitdown splash = 80
    sitdown splash from the second rope (Banzai Drop) = 130

    flying senton (flying back splash) = 140
    flying somersault senton (Swanton Bomb) = 130
    rolling senton (Rolling Thunder) = 110
    senton = 80
    senton from the second rope = 120
    somersault senton = 140
    springboard senton = 140
    springboard somersault senton (springboard Swanton) = 150

    Regarding the naming:
    splash = a move where the opponent is on the mat and you land on them
    senton = a back splash
    sitdown = you land on the guy with your butt rather than your back or stomach
    flying = from the turnbuckle
    springboard = off the ropes
    slingshot = you stand on the apron and slingshot yourself over the ropes onto the guy
    somersault = you do a flip during the move before landing

    For further reference...
    splash = Ultimate Warrior's finisher (and variants with less running involved)
    flying splash = Shawn Michaels did this
    Frog Splash = Eddie's & RVD's finishers
    450 splash = Juventud Guerrera's WCW finisher

    I don't see why falling splash shouldn't be combined with a regular splash.  I just checked my TNM and its not from the turnbuckle or anything.  I'd already combined running splash with this.

    The damage amounts seem all screwy though (at least in my version).  The way I see it is, damage-wise:

    sitdown > senton > splash
    flying > springboard > slingshot > from the second rope > regular
    somersault > regular

    Keeping all that in mind, here's my adjusted damage for splashes:

    flying sitdown splash = 150
    flying somersault senton (Swanton Bomb) = 150
    flying somersault splash = 140
    flying senton (flying back splash) = 140
    frog splash = 130
    springboard somersault senton (springboard Swanton) = 130
    twisting 450 splash = 130
    450 splash (aka Phoenix Splash / Firebird Splash) = 125
    flying splash (flying bodypress / diving splash) = 120
    sitdown splash from the second rope (Banzai Drop) = 120
    springboard senton = 120
    springboard somersault splash = 120
    springboard splash = 110
    slingshot splash (slingshot bodypress) = 100
    senton from the second rope = 120
    splash from the second rope (Vader Bomb) = 100
    sitdown splash = 100
    somersault senton = 90
    rolling senton (Rolling Thunder) = 85
    senton = 80
    somersault splash = 75
    splash (splash / Big Splash) = 70

    How's all that sound?
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/08/07 at 21:38:16

    Next up on the whole-bunch-of-variants department, powerbombs. Here's what's in my database:

    Blue Thunder Bomb (belly-to-back suplex into a powerbomb) = 90
    chokelift power bomb (Baldo Bomb / chokebomb) = 110
    choke slam power bomb (Miracle Ecstacy) = 100
    double underhook power bomb (butterfly bomb) = 125
    electric chair drop (face-first shoulder mount power bomb / shoulder mount inverted power bomb)* = 110
    fireman's carry power bomb = 130
    full nelson atomic bomb (Buh Buh Bomb) = 80
    gutwrench power bomb (Doctor Bomb) = 130
    inverted power bomb (Dominator / Yokosuka Driver / Drug Bomb) = 100
    jack-knife power bomb (power bomb into a jack-knife pin NOT Kevin Nash's finisher) = 120
    jumping power bomb = 120
    power bomb = 100
    pumphandle power bomb = 100
    running power bomb = 140
    sitdown power bomb (Liger Bomb / Lyger Bomb) = 130
    spinebuster bomb (Rydeen Bomb / Sky Hi)** = 120
    spinning power bomb = 110
    Thunder Fire Power Bomb (one-shoulder kneeling power bomb)= 120
    tiger driver (tiger bomb / double underhook sitdown power bomb / Pearl River Plunge) = 110
    top-rope Blue Thunder Bomb = 150
    top-rope power bomb (Super Bomb) = 140
    Orange Crush Bomb (vertical suplex into a power bomb) = 130

    crucifix power bomb (Splash Mountain / Razor's Edge) = 150
    Niagara Driver (sitout crucifix power bomb) = 165
    top-rope crucifix power bomb = 180

    cross-armed Northern Lights Bomb = 155
    Northern Lights bomb (Snow Plow) = 145

    If you have single leg power bomb on your list, merge it with spinebuster slam.

    * Edge did this years ago (no idea if he still does or who else)
    ** D-Lo Brown's bomb finisher

    I like the default damage of 100 for a regular power bomb. Most of this looks good. Changes I would make are:
    • lower damage on a double underhook power bomb from 125 to 100 (should be same as a regular power bomb)
    • lower damage on a sitdown power bomb from 120 to 110 (should be same as a tiger driver)
    • lower damage on a fireman's carry power bomb from 130 to 100 (should be the same as a regular power bomb)
    • lower damage on a running power bomb from 130 to 120 (same as a jumping power bomb)
    • lower damage on a top-rope Blue Thunder Bomb from 150 to 130 (10 less than a top-rope power bomb, since a Blue Thunder Bomb is 10 less than a power bomb)

    I strongly suspect the damage on the crucifix power bomb (and it variations) should be lower but offhand I'm not sure how much. I'm also wondering if damage on a gutwrench power bomb and Northern Lights bomb should come down too. Thoughts?

    Per my changes above, that gives us these results:

    top-rope crucifix power bomb (top-rope Splash Mountain) = 180
    Niagara Driver (sitout/pinning crucifix power bomb) = 165
    cross-armed Northern Lights Bomb = 155
    crucifix power bomb (Splash Mountain / Razor's Edge) = 150
    Northern Lights bomb (Snow Plow) = 145
    top-rope power bomb (Super Bomb) = 140
    gutwrench power bomb (Doctor Bomb) = 140
    top-rope Blue Thunder Bomb = 130
    Orange Crush Bomb (vertical suplex into a power bomb) = 130
    running power bomb = 120
    jumping power bomb = 120
    spinebuster bomb (Rydeen Bomb / Sky Hi)** = 120
    jack-knife power bomb (power bomb into a jack-knife pin NOT Kevin Nash's finisher) = 120
    Thunder Fire Power Bomb (one-shoulder kneeling power bomb)= 120
    electric chair drop (face-first shoulder mount power bomb / shoulder mount inverted power bomb)* = 110
    tiger driver (tiger bomb / double underhook sitdown power bomb / Pearl River Plunge) = 110
    sitdown power bomb (Liger Bomb / Lyger Bomb) = 110
    spinning power bomb = 110
    chokelift power bomb (Baldo Bomb / chokebomb) = 110
    inverted power bomb (Dominator / Yokosuka Driver / Drug Bomb) = 100
    choke slam power bomb (Miracle Ecstacy) = 100
    double underhook power bomb (butterfly bomb) = 100
    power bomb = 100
    pumphandle power bomb = 100
    fireman's carry power bomb = 100
    Blue Thunder Bomb (belly-to-back suplex into a powerbomb) = 90
    full nelson atomic bomb (Buh Buh Bomb) = 80
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/09/07 at 22:13:49

    Okay, I've read all of your recent comments and taken them all on board. Josh, thanks a lot for your help. I've been using your moves database for years and I have implemented most if not all of your recommended damages for splashes and power bombs.

    Here are some points I want to bring to people's attention:

    I'm tempted to replace Baba chop with Tomahawk chop in the database. Still undecided about this one. Talk to me.

    I agree with the kick damage ranging from 35-50, except for superkick and Yakuza kick.

    I think back suplex is the same as belly-to-back suplex. Backdrop suplex is more impactful, as the victim lands on the back of their head and neck (strong style!!) Same as a backdrop driver though, or is this different altogether??

    A bodytrap cradle is the move RVD does when he locks a standing opponent in a bodyscissors and uses his own leg strength to roll them up into a pin.

    I think maybe we should just remove the "Buff" from Buff blockbuster. Flying somersault neckbreaker is the move John Cena does out of the ropes. Throwback, I think he calls it.

    I took bullet dropkick to mean a low dropkick to a downed opponent??

    I have flying bodypress in my database instead of flying splash.

    After consultation with Oliver a few years ago, we decided on the following move names:
    double-arm choke slam (Baldo Bomb, chokebomb)
    sitout full nelson bomb (Bubba/Brother Bomb)
    inverted powerslam (Dominator)
    inverted power bomb (Alley-Oop)

    A few more notes regarding wrestler exports from Oliver Copp himself:

    * a backdrop is never an offensive move unless you're in Japan (and
     what they call the backdrop is a back suplex)
    * the spin kick is a kick where you jump straight in the air and spin
     into a kick a la Fujinami.
    * diving shoulderblock is a flying shoulderblock from the turnbuckles
    * "move can be done from behind opponent" means just that - if the
     wrestler stands behind his opponent, can the move be done? It's
     important to note that it's ALWAYS in a vertical position.
    * "person doing move may end up behind opponent" - also in a standing
     position; best example: go-behind
    * you should make sure that your setup moves for finishers are in the
     wrestler's move list
    * tornado DDTs are counter moves in the corner, not moves out of the
     corner (like a lariat)
    * the first move in a wrestler record is always a move that can be
     done out of the ropes
    * finishers like Triple H's Pedigree shouldn't have the "Out Of Ropes"
     flag set; lariats should have

    Cheers guys.
    mamushiPosted on 07/09/07 at 23:31:32

    On 07/09/07 at 22:13:49, King_Of_Old_School wrote:* the first move in a wrestler record is always a move that can be
     done out of the ropes
    I thought I remembered reading that this was taken out of later builds or something...

    *might be going crazy though... well... crazier...*
    triad4evrPosted on 07/09/07 at 23:32:08

    On 07/09/07 at 22:13:49, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Okay, I've read all of your recent comments and taken them all on board. Josh, thanks a lot for your help. I've been using your moves database for years and I have implemented most if not all of your recommended damages for splashes and power bombs.

    [snipped for brevity]

    * the first move in a wrestler record is always a move that can be
    done out of the ropes
    I was under the impression that this last item here was no longer the case in SE because you now have the "Out of Ropes" "Wrestler Runs" and "Opponent Runs" flags to distinguish those sorts of moves- my understanding is the first move is now no different than any other. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    -Jeff
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/10/07 at 00:21:13

    On 07/09/07 at 22:13:49, King_Of_Old_School wrote:I'm tempted to replace Baba chop with Tomahawk chop in the database. Still undecided about this one. Talk to me.
    Motion seconded.

    I think back suplex is the same as belly-to-back suplex. Backdrop suplex is more impactful, as the victim lands on the back of their head and neck (strong style!!) Same as a backdrop driver though, or is this different altogether??
    Wiki sez:
    High angle belly to back suplex  Also known as a Backdrop driver. The attacker stands behind his/her opponent and puts his/her head under the arm of the opponent. He/she then lifts the opponent up using both of his arms wrapped around the torso of the opponent. The attacker finally falls backwards to drive the opponent to the mat on their neck and shoulders.

    I like the backdrop driver name FWIW and I think its used by that name more than any other (especially in Japan).  All the high-angle belly-to-back stuff can go under that i think.

    I think maybe we should just remove the "Buff" from Buff blockbuster. Flying somersault neckbreaker is the move John Cena does out of the ropes. Throwback, I think he calls it.

    If it's off the ropes, its not really a flying somersault blockbuster.  That would probably just be a regular somersault neckbreaker.

    I have flying bodypress in my database instead of flying splash.
    YMMV.

    I like splash over bodypress because all the other moves are also called something splash (not something bodypress).

    inverted powerslam (Dominator)
    inverted power bomb (Alley-Oop)
    Who does the Alley Oop and how is it different from a Dominator?
    Memphis_VicePosted on 07/10/07 at 01:25:55

    On 07/09/07 at 22:13:49, King_Of_Old_School wrote:
    I have flying bodypress in my database instead of flying splash.
    I thought a flying bodypress was done to a standing opponent, a la Ricky Steamboat's finisher and the move Flair usually hits when he actually succeeds at jumping off the turnbuckle.
    mamushiPosted on 07/10/07 at 01:50:17

    On 07/10/07 at 00:21:13, LillaThrilla wrote:Who does the Alley Oop and how is it different from a Dominator?
    Big show did the Alley Oop for a lil bit I think.  Just in his moveset, not as a finisher.  And it's a lot different from a Dominator.  The alley oop is when you pick someone up in a powerbomb and fall backwards dropping your opponent on their face.  Dominator (obviously) is picking them up into a canadian backbreaker and then slamming them face first in front of you.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/10/07 at 02:03:28

    On 07/10/07 at 01:25:55, Memphis_Vice wrote:
    I thought a flying bodypress was done to a standing opponent, a la Ricky Steamboat's finisher and the move Flair usually hits when he actually succeeds at jumping off the turnbuckle.
    That sounds more like a flying bodyblock / flying crossbody press...

    What should damage on Goldberg's / Rhyno's spear/Gore be? My list has 35 which is waaaaaaaaaaay low.

    Most power bomb variants should have the following counters either generic or style specific: backdrop, rana, Frankensteiner, kneebar, small package, low blow, faceslam. I just noticed on my list than many of them didn't have all that (though in a couple cases, they shouldn't have all of them).

    Also, I'm seeing in my list that "elbow smash" is used as a counter move frequently. I'm pretty sure than 99% of the time this should be a back elbow NOT an elbow smash.

    Here are all the kicks, punches, and chops I have. I've adjusted damage levels based on the guideline suggested by someone above that punches should be 20-35 damage and kicks 35-50 (with finisher kicks a little higher).  Anything redudant? I've struck through old damage moves and noted my suggested new damage moves next to them.

    KICKS
    superkick (thrust kick) = 60
    Yakuza kick (Mafia kick) = 60
    flying spin kick (Feliner) = 80 60
    flying side kick = 50 60
    savate kick (Kick of Fear) = 50 60
    kick to the groin (forward kick to the nads) = 70 55
    backward kick (counter move if in a full nelson, etc) = 50
    enzuigiri (Ghetto Blaster) = 80 50
    big boot = 55 50
    roundhouse kick = 85 50
    spinning thrust kick = 160 50
    scissor kick (ax kick) = 120 50
    spinning mule kick = 50
    mule kick = 50 45
    spin kick (spinwheel kick) = 50 45
    rolling koppo kick*** = 60 45?
    koppo kick (koppou kick / koppu kick)*** = 60 45?
    rolling kick = 60 45?
    spin kick (spinwheel kick) = 50 45
    kick to the head* = 55 45
    jumping side kick = 60 45
    standing side kick = 45 40
    jumping front kick (jumping thrust kick / bicycle kick) = 80
    high kick = 65 40 (combine with something?)
    cartwheel kick = 30 40
    kick to the midsection = 40
    kick to the leg** = 35

    * combines kick to the head, kick to the face, kick to the back of the head, etc
    ** combines kick to the leg, kick to the shin, kick to the thigh, etc
    *** WTF is the correct spelling - koppo, koppu, or koppu? and I think a koppo kick is always rolling?

    jumping high kick = 85 can be combined with with jumping front kick?
    back heel kick (back kick) = 25 can be combined with mule kick?
    thrust kick to the head = 100 can be combined with superkick?

    And for all these I think the damage just becomes 3x whatever damage for the single version is above...
    series of kicks to the head = 100
    series of kicks to the midsection = 75
    series of kicks to the leg = 60

    PUNCHES
    heart punch = 90 50 (it is a finisher for some)
    Discus punch = 120 40
    roundhouse punch (roundhouse right / roundhouse left) = 35
    mounted punch = 35 (?)
    palm blow = 80 30
    rabbit punch (back of the head = 30
    punch to the head (/face/side of the head) = 25
    punch to the midsection = 20 25
    punch to the butt (Ass Punch) = 20
    punch = 15 20
    jab (left jab / right jab) = 40 10

    series of jabs = 90 30?
    series of punches = 50 60?
    series of punches to the midsection = 75
    series of mounted punches (Ground and Pound) = 75 (?)

    On a related note...
    low blow = 55 (higher?)
    flying fistdrop = 80 (?)
    fistdrop (includes Five Knuckle Shuffle) = 50 (?)

    CHOPS
    flying karate chop = 100 30?
    flying Tomahawk chop = 100 40?
    knifehand chop = 35
    Tomahawk chop = 25
    chop = 20

    On a related note...
    slap = 10
    UnrightPosted on 07/10/07 at 03:55:53

    Damn. You're getting helluva lot of work done since I last check. Great job all (Josh is particular).

    Spear should be about 70 or so. Goldberg/Edge/Rhyno use it as a finisher, but for everyone else it's just a strong move.

    Re: Koppo Kick... I don't really know what that is (showing off my wrestling ignorance in this thread..). Google search only brings up match results. The BBOWM has it listed thusly:

    Kick, Rolling Koppou
    Used by : Jushin Lyger, Psicosis, Antonio Inoki, Yuji Nagata, Toshiaki Kawada
    AKA : Abise giri
    Description : The attacker does a forward somersault roll. As they roll forward, the attack hits the victim in the head/chest with the back of their heel/leg.
    Variations :

       * Corner Rolling Koppou Kick (Jushin Lyger)

    So maybe... legdrop +10?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/14/07 at 15:43:02

    Anybody know the official name for Spyder Nate Webb's Arachnid Kick? I'll try and find a vid of it if you are unfamiliar with it.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/14/07 at 16:26:53

    FRANKENSTEINERS/RANAS/CRADLES/ROLLUPS/etc

    NM's Intellihelp gives an inside cradle 20 damage and I guess that's a good reference point. Really, most of the cradles should probably be set to 20. I have:
    backflip cradle
    inside cradle
    reverse cradle (reverse inside cradle)
    small package
    double leg cradle

    Roll up (schoolboy) = 10 which is good to me too.

    Other stuff...
    flying sunset flip = 60
    Victory Roll = 40
    crucifix (crucifix roll-up) = 35
    Magistral Cradle (Dandina Cradle) = 30
    sunset flip = 30
    rolling reverse cradle (rolling reverse cradle into a bridge) = 30
    backslide = 20
    Sunset backslide = 20

    As for the Frankensteiner/rana stuff...yikes! Damage is all over the place on this. In case anyone doesn't know, they are the same move except the Franksteiner releases while a rana ends in a rana pinning hold.

    And I'm all for leaving it rana because of how many different ways I have seen "hurricanrana" mispelt.

    Most Frankesteiner/rana variants should have powerbomb, sitdown powerbomb, and Hotshot as counters. Top-rope variants should have top-rope power bomb as a counter. Anything else?

    reverse top-rope Franksteiner (reverse Super Franksteiner) = 200
    Frankensteiner from the top rope (flying Frankensteiner)* = 200
    top-rope Franksteiner (Super Frankstensteiner)** = 155
    dragon rana (Dragon Ray / 360 rana) = 155
    Frankensteiner = 150
    top-rope rana (top-rope hurricanrana)** = 140
    springboard rana*** = 90
    Victory Roll into a rana = 85
    handspring into a Franksteiner = 70
    rana (hurricanrana) = 60

    * jump from turnbuckle onto standing opponent
    ** top wrestlers on the turnbuckle
    *** jumping from the ropes onto standing opponent (Rey Misterio did/does this)

    Yeah, that's all craptastic. I think 60 is probably a good number for a rana. I would think a Frankensteiner should be slightly less than a rana because it doesn't end in a roll-up. However, that should probably reverse for the top-rope versions because the Franksteiner will see the guy go flying across the ring. I would redo the list something like this:

    reverse top-rope Franksteiner (reverse Super Franksteiner) = 160
    top-rope Franksteiner = 155
    top-rope rana (top-rope hurricanrana) = 145
    Frankensteiner from the top rope (flying Frankensteiner)* = 75
    springboard rana = 70
    handspring into a Franksteiner = 65
    dragon rana (Dragon Ray / 360 rana) = 65
    rana (hurricanrana) = 60
    Victory Roll into a rana = 60
    Frankensteiner = 50

    How's all that sound?

    I'll be back with more stuff maybe late tomorrow. I got Magic: The Gathering Worldwide Games Day / 10th Edition Release Day today. :)
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/14/07 at 16:36:58

    On 07/14/07 at 15:43:02, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Anybody know the official name for Spyder Nate Webb's Arachnid Kick? I'll try and find a vid of it if you are unfamiliar with it.
    I saw something that called it a "cyclone kick".

    Wikipedia lists cyclone kick aka tornado kick aka inside turning kick aka 540 kick here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/540_kick

    It has a video clip. Same move?

    Assuming that's what it is, I like the idea of calling it a tornado kick or cyclone kick for our purposes.  Damage should be roundhouse kick +5?
    JakePosted on 07/14/07 at 16:46:12

    And I'm all for leaving it rana because of how many different ways I have seen "hurricanrana" mispelt (sic).
    Huracarrana.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/14/07 at 19:33:24

    On 07/14/07 at 16:36:58, LillaThrilla wrote:

    I saw something that called it a "cyclone kick".

    Wikipedia lists cyclone kick aka tornado kick aka inside turning kick aka 540 kick here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/540_kick

    It has a video clip. Same move?

    Assuming that's what it is, I like the idea of calling it a tornado kick or cyclone kick for our purposes. Damage should be roundhouse kick +5?
    That's the boy. I've added it to the moves database accordingly.

    Thanks for all your help with this, Josh. I'll upload my updated moves list later this weekend.
    AzraelPosted on 07/14/07 at 21:24:28

    A school boy is an inside cradle.

    And I think it's spelled "huracanrana", since a rana is technically just the end cradle position.
    triad4evrPosted on 07/14/07 at 23:05:08

    Hey, is anybody else noticing you can't de-select  Automatic Pinfall Attempt? Was trying to update the rana variants, and it wouldn't let me uncheck that!
    JakePosted on 07/15/07 at 00:00:11

    I get that too sometimes. Just go to the next screen or select another option and it will clear. It clears but it just doesn't show it.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/15/07 at 10:11:52

    Updated list, A thru E:

    http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls
    suicidalbynaturePosted on 07/15/07 at 19:44:39

    This is simply awesome work guys! I can't wait to redo my moves list in TNM. One question though...who uses a 450 double foot stomp? I could picture Jack Evans doing it and thats about it. It's kind of hard to picture in my head.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/15/07 at 21:55:09

    A guy called Slim J from NWA Anarchy. I'm sure Jack Evans could do it/has done it.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/17/07 at 05:27:46

    I should have some more move category comparison lists up tomorrow.  In the meantime, a few questions...

    Mounted punches: do they refer to a wrestler on an opponent on the mat (as frequently happens in UFC/MMA)?  Or when an opponent is backed into a corner and the wrestler mounts the turnbuckles then punches away (as the crow usually counts along)?  I had thought it was the former, but Wikipedia has the latter so I'm confused...

    Trying to correctly resolve the mule kick vs spin kick vs back heel kick thing.
    http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/bbbowm/part1.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick#Back_kick
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_attacks#Spin_kick
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_attacks#Mule_kick

    It seems clear that a mule kick is a seperate move.  The difference between a spin kick and a back heel kick seems more vague.  At most, a spin kick seems to just be a back heel kick into a spin.

    Of course, "spinning heel kick" is a name frequently used to refer to a spinning leg lariat.

    Anyone know some counters for an armbar?

    How about counters to a rear chinlock and/or camel clutch?

    Should all kicks against the legs or midsection of a standing opponent have "single leg takedown" as a counter?  I'm thinking of a guy attempting a kick only to have the opponent catch his foot then knock him down.  I don't know that it's a single-leg takedown in the traditional MMA sense but I can't think of a better name for it.  Thoughts?

    Should the "series of..." moves be done away with?  Remember that you can give a wrestler a series of 2-3 corner moves as well as giving them a two-move combo.  And IIRC, with SE you can give them the same move twice without risking the match going into an infinite loop. ;)

    T-bone suplex vs Exploder suplex: it was debated repeatedly years ago that these moves were different but Wikipedia and BBBoWM list them as the same.  Thoughts?

    Is a waistlock suplex a German suplex?  Or is it a German suplex with the opponent side-to-belly rather than back-to-belly?

    Is a takeover suplex just an overhead belly-to-belly suplex?

    To correct my earlier answer to a question about a single arm DDT, I was right that it needed to be removed.  But it is an armbar takedown not a DDT.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/17/07 at 22:32:20

    Spinning heel kick is standing, spinning leg lariat is running/flying (like Pillman used to do).

    Waistlock suplex is done more from the side but still standing behind the opponent. And you reach fully around his waist with your arms. Think Masa Saito's Saito Suplex.

    A takeover suplex is similar to an overhead belly-to-belly. The difference is that you put a double overhook on his arms, just like Al Snow does before he headbutts his opponents.

    A back heel kick is standing (and not moving your body), a spin kick is - well - spinning and jumping up (think Killer Khan).
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/17/07 at 23:45:21

    On 07/17/07 at 22:32:20, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Spinning heel kick is standing, spinning leg lariat is running/flying (like Pillman used to do).
    Spinning leg lariat  you're paralel to the mat when hit them too yes?  I never saw much of Pillman in the ring but I have this random yet distinct memory of Owen Hart doing it.  Either WCW or WWF back when I used to watch regularly loved to call them all spinning heel kicks.

    On 07/17/07 at 22:32:20, King_Of_Old_School wrote:A back heel kick is standing (and not moving your body), a spin kick is - well - spinning and jumping up (think Killer Khan).
    Killer Khan?  Didn't he wrestle in the stone age? :P

    So the way you describe it a back heel kick = mule kick.  So is a spinning mule kick then a spinning back heel kick which is not the same as a spin kick?

    When I think spin kick I think of that move Ryu did in Street Fighter, but that's a video game. :P  The video clip on the Wiki article has the guy do a 360 without jumping.
    triad4evrPosted on 07/18/07 at 01:34:34

    Waitamin- isn't the Back Heel Kick the thing Booker T does when he takes your arm, turns, and then boots you with the back of his foot? I'm confused.
    JakePosted on 07/18/07 at 01:47:55

    That's an arm wringer and kick.
    CarlzillaPosted on 07/18/07 at 06:50:18

    On 07/17/07 at 05:27:46, LillaThrilla wrote:I should have some more move category comparison lists up tomorrow.  In the meantime, a few questions...

    Mounted punches: do they refer to a wrestler on an opponent on the mat (as frequently happens in UFC/MMA)?  Or when an opponent is backed into a corner and the wrestler mounts the turnbuckles then punches away (as the crow usually counts along)?  I had thought it was the former, but Wikipedia has the latter so I'm confused...
    I'd say it's the former, at least that's how I see it. I'd call the turnbuckle version either corner mounted punches or turnbuckle mounted punches.


    Anyone know some counters for an armbar?
    Is this a standing armbar or a cross armbar?

    If it's a cross armbar, in japan people counter with an armbar of their own frequently, or a roll-up while the arm is still hooked.

    How about counters to a rear chinlock and/or camel clutch?
    aside from just breaking the hold, I can't think of any.

    Should all kicks against the legs or midsection of a standing opponent have "single leg takedown" as a counter?  I'm thinking of a guy attempting a kick only to have the opponent catch his foot then knock him down.  I don't know that it's a single-leg takedown in the traditional MMA sense but I can't think of a better name for it.  Thoughts?
    No, not all guys use that move, maybe a style specific counter for a shooter.

    Should the "series of..." moves be done away with?  Remember that you can give a wrestler a series of 2-3 corner moves as well as giving them a two-move combo.  And IIRC, with SE you can give them the same move twice without risking the match going into an infinite loop. ;)
    No, personally, I think the series moves are important. Some guys do a string of the same move more than 2 or 3 times in a row, and I think having it donated as a series adds more flavor to the matches than 2 or 3 straight lines of "Kobashi lands a chop".

    T-bone suplex vs Exploder suplex: it was debated repeatedly years ago that these moves were different but Wikipedia and BBBoWM list them as the same.  Thoughts?
    It's always been my opinion that a T-Bone suplex is type of Exploder suplex but with a different landing. Almost everytime I see an exploder suplex done in wrestling, both attackers land vertical. In a T-Bone suplex they land more like a "T", where the attacker lands vertical and recipiant lands horizontal above the attacker.

    Is a waistlock suplex a German suplex?  Or is it a German suplex with the opponent side-to-belly rather than back-to-belly?
    A Waistlock Suplex is a Saito Suplex which is done from the back of the opponent with them facing the side.

    Is a takeover suplex just an overhead belly-to-belly suplex?
    I've got no idea on this one...

    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/19/07 at 02:03:45

    Do we need to have a corkscrew 450 splash be listed seperately from a regular 450 splash?  How about a backwards/imploding 450 splash?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_aerial_techniques#450.C2.B0_splash

    Is Wikipedia correct that an Iconoclasm is always from the top rope?  If so, "top rope Iconoclasm" would be redudant.

    AzraelPosted on 07/19/07 at 02:13:18

    CIMA does the Iconoclasm either with the opponent seated on the turnbuckle and him standing on the mat or with the opponent standing on the top rope and CIMA standing on the second rope.

    I think the second one is what's being called the top-rope Iconoclasm. Whether it could be given a better name is another discussion.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/19/07 at 17:43:04

    Should we have a backdrop and also a backdrop off the top rope (for countering top-rope power bombs, etc)? The damage would be different at least.

    While we're at it, what's a good damage amount for a backdrop?

    And something I realize we haven't dealt with: the Rock Bottom. What are we gonna call it? Soviet suplex seems dated and a largely unused term. Rock Bottom? Book End? STO? Side slam? Forward side slam? Throat slam suplex?

    I don't really like anything with the name "suplex" in it since the move isn't very suplex-esk.

    I know urange is a popular term for it but I also read that this is also technically incorrect and stems from a mistranslation.  An urange is judo throw which is more like a side suplex (going backwards, rather than forwards like a Rock Bottom) and using that name would just serve as confusion IMO.

    I like side slam myself and that's what Wikipedia lists it under.

    On 07/19/07 at 02:13:18, Azrael wrote:CIMA does the Iconoclasm either with the opponent seated on the turnbuckle and him standing on the mat or with the opponent standing on the top rope and CIMA standing on the second rope.

    I think the second one is what's being called the top-rope Iconoclasm. Whether it could be given a better name is another discussion.
    Standing Iconoclasm & seated Iconoclasm?
    Iconoclasm off the top rope & top-rope Iconoclasm?

    Neither of those seems right; they are kinda technically correct but "standing" and "off the tope rope" are usually used with a different implication than being used here.

    Then again, TNM doesn't distinguish whether a wrestler is standing or seated on the turnbuckle, just that he's there. I guess it kinda matters where the attacker is (also on turnbuckle or not). But you also get into weird situations with stuff like a top-rope Soviet suplex (/Rock Bottom/etc) if the size difference is right then the attacker might stand on the second rope instead of the tope rope (where the opponent is).

    It might not be worth differentiating, especially if we can't come up with a good name.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/19/07 at 21:12:30

    I think we need to stick to going through the move list alphebetically. I'm starting to lose track of what's been discussed. I'll try and post the F moves tomorrow.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/19/07 at 21:38:06

    On 07/19/07 at 21:12:30, King_Of_Old_School wrote:I think we need to stick to going through the move list alphebetically. I'm starting to lose track of what's been discussed. I'll try and post the F moves tomorrow.
    The problem with going through it alphabetically is that alot of moves' damge needs to be done in comparison with each other.

    I would think finishing move categories would be better then going back through for an A-to-Z second run through for things we might have missed, counters, etc.

    I'll try to also get an updated list on TNM 3:16 tonight which should include pretty much everything we've covered here.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/19/07 at 21:43:39

    SUPLEXES
    TNM's intellihelp lists some suplex damages:
    superplex = 140
    tiger suplex = 80
    belly-to-belly suplex = 80
    German suplex = 80
    Soviet suplex = 65

    I think that's probably a good basis.

    The damage for alot of suplexes on my list seems way too high so I'm just going to list what seems to me as the correct damage relative to other moves on the list.

    super fisherman buster (cradle brainbuster superplex) = 180
    top-rope fallaway slam (top-rope table top suplex / table top superplex) = 160
    top-rope German suplex (spider German suplex / German superplex) = 150
    belly-to-belly superplex = 150
    belly-to-back superplex (top-rope backdrop suplex) = 150
    double underhook superplex (butterfly superplex) = 150
    top-rope fisherman suplex (fisherman superplex) = 145
    superplex (vertical superplex / top-rope suplex) = 140
    front-layout superplex (front superplex) = 130
    fisherman buster (fisherman brainbuster / cradle brainbuster suplex) = 130
    inverted brainbuster (reverse brainbuster / Michinoku Driver I) = 125
    brainbuster (brainbuster suplex / avalanche suplex / vertical brainbuster) = 120
    backdrop driver (high-angle belly-to-back suplex) = 110
    chickenwing facelock suplex (crossface chickenwing suplex / machine suplex / windmill suplex / Millennium Suplex) = 100
    exploder suplex = 90
    t-bone suplex = 90
    Northern Lights suplex = 90
    spinning belly-to-back suplex (spinning back suplex) = 90
    waistlock suplex (Saito suplex) = 90
    fallaway slam (Blockbuster Slam / table top suplex) = 85
    full nelson suplex (dragon suplex) = 85
    half nelson suplex = 85
    cross-armed German suplex (straightjacket suplex / Aztecan suplex / X-plex) = 85
    takeover suplex = 85
    head and arm suplex (Taz-Plex / gargoyle suplex / overhead head and arm suplex) = 85
    German suplex* = 80
    tiger suplex = 80
    cobra clutch suplex = 80
    belly-to-belly suplex** = 80
    belly-to-back suplex (back suplex / backdrop suplex) = 75
    side slam (Soviet suplex / Rock Bottom / et al) = 70
    slingshot suplex (Van Hammer's suplex finisher / Stun Gun Suplex) = 70
    wheelbarrow suplex (wheelbarrel suplex / Snowplex) = 65
    swinging fisherman suplex = 65
    snap suplex = 65
    gutwrench suplex = 60
    side suplex (teardrop suplex) = 60
    double underhook suplex (butterfly suplex) = 60
    fisherman suplex (cradle suplex / Perfect Plex / Yellowjacket suplex) = 60
    tilt-a-whirl suplex (spinning suplex) = 60
    inverted suplex (reverse suplex / inverted vertical suplex) = 60
    vertical suplex = 50
    front-layout suplex (front suplex / Curtain Call) = 40

    * do we need a seperate entry for a release German suplex in addition to the regular pinning/bridging version?
    ** do we need a seperate entries for side belly-to-belly suplex and overhead belly-to-belly suplex?

    Comments? Anything I missed?
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/19/07 at 21:47:33

    CLOTHESLINES, LARIATS, FOREARM SMASHES, & ELBOW SMASHES
    Most clotheslines and lariats have at least these amongst their counters:
    duck-down move
    hiptoss
    crucifix
    belly-to-belly suplex
    armbar submission
    armbar takedown
    Gorilla Press

    Probably the same for forearm smashes and elbow smashes, except elbow smashes don't have the armbar counters?

    flying forearm = 100
    flying lariat (top-rope lariat / lariat off the top rope) = 90
    springboard lariat = 80
    flying clothesline (top-rope clothesline / clothesline off the top rope) = 70
    slingshot lariat = 65
    springboard elbow smash = 65
    flying elbow smash = 60
    springboard clothesline = 60
    jumping lariat (leaping lariat) = 60
    short lariat = 60
    discus lariat (spinning lariat) = 55
    rolling lariat = 55
    lariat (running lariat / lazo / Western lariat) = 50
    slingshot clothesline (catapault clothesline) = 45
    jumping clothesline (leaping clothesline / Steinerline) = 40
    rolling elbow smash (Roaring Elbow) = 40
    forearm smash (running forearm smash / forearm to the back) = 40
    clothesline to the back of the head (enzulariato / Northern lariat) = 40
    short clothesline = 40
    elbow smash (running elbow smash) = 35
    rolling clothesline = 35
    clothesline (running clothesline)** = 30

    I think we need to settle on a naming system regarding the leaping/jumping vs flying thing.  I like flying to refer to the version off the top rope while jumping is where you jump before hitting the guy.  However, I know flying clothesline is frequently used to refer to the leaping version.  I'm not even sure about the whole Flying Forearm thing.

    Perhaps to avoid confusion we should use "jumping/leaping clothesline" and "clothesline from the top rope" and completely eschew use of "flying clothesline" to avoid the confusion?  Ditto for the others.
    Memphis_VicePosted on 07/20/07 at 00:00:23

    On 07/19/07 at 21:43:39, LillaThrilla wrote:

    All in all this looks good and I plan to incorporate you guys' changes, at least in damage values, to my own TNM in the future. So take it with a grain of salt when I...
    On 07/19/07 at 21:43:39, LillaThrilla wrote:
    slingshot suplex (Van Hammer's suplex finisher / Stun Gun Suplex) = 70
    ...weep that more people saw/remember Van Hammer than Tully Blanchard.  :P
    Memphis_VicePosted on 07/20/07 at 00:01:39

    On 07/19/07 at 21:47:33, LillaThrilla wrote:

    Perhaps to avoid confusion we should use "jumping/leaping clothesline" and "clothesline from the top rope" and completely eschew use of "flying clothesline" to avoid the confusion?  Ditto for the others.
    AMEN, I love this idea.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/20/07 at 00:08:13

    On 07/20/07 at 00:00:23, Memphis_Vice wrote:So take it with a grain of salt when I weep that more people saw/remember Van Hammer than Tully Blanchard. :P
    Yeah, I've actually never seen Tully wrestle, just heard stories.

    Of course, he also called his Slingshot Suplex a Slingshot Suplex not a fancy name like Hammer or Austin. :P
    triad4evrPosted on 07/20/07 at 02:29:16

    On 07/19/07 at 21:47:33, LillaThrilla wrote:CLOTHESLINES, LARIATS, FOREARM SMASHES, & ELBOW SMASHES
    forearm smash (running forearm smash / forearm to the back) = 40
    My only issue here is that I think a running forearm smash should be more damaging than a standing one or a forearm to the back- I'm reminded of Lex Luger back in the day, or John Cena- I'd say 45-50 is probably better- the running part oughta be worth 10-20% or so, don'cha think?

    By the way, loving this project. I have been updating to keep up.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/20/07 at 06:29:19

    On 07/07/07 at 11:44:14, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Asai DDT is a standing sliced bread #2, as done by Ultimo Dragon.
    I've been reading a bit more on this and I'm wondering if the simple-yet-technical name for this move would be a swinging inverted DDT?

    P.S. I am making a bazillion changes on the Moves List from TNM, adding not just the information discussed here so far but also lots of little bits with counters and alternate names that I've come across in my online reading for this project.  I'll definitely have that done this weekend.  I'll even make it more of a priority than reading the new Harry Potter book. :P
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/20/07 at 09:29:58

    On 07/19/07 at 21:38:06, LillaThrilla wrote:

    The problem with going through it alphabetically is that alot of moves' damge needs to be done in comparison with each other.
    Yeah, that's true. I just meant that it will be easier to have a full list when renaming moves and keeping everything consistent.

    I'm pretty certain that Asai DDT is the industry term and we should keep it as that.

    Also, I'm not sure about this whole "flying" moves name. I like the names "flying clothesline" and "flying forearm" even if they are done out of the ropes. It's the common name of the move and I'm not a fan of renaming them. However, if the consensus is to change the names of these moves to keep a degree of consistency, then it's cool.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/20/07 at 09:34:52

    On 07/19/07 at 21:43:39, LillaThrilla wrote:
    * do we need a seperate entry for a release German suplex in addition to the regular pinning/bridging version?
    ** do we need a seperate entries for side belly-to-belly suplex and overhead belly-to-belly suplex?

    Comments? Anything I missed?
    My feeling is yes to both. By the way, just to be picky, TNM has always listed elbowsmash as one word and brain buster as two.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/20/07 at 15:16:57

    I have updated the TNM Move List Excel spreadsheet with all of Josh's changes, as well as the moves starting with F. Also, because I had free time today, I have also added all 450 million moves that start with S. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration but it was loads.

    http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls  

    Let me know what you think.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/20/07 at 16:19:39

    On 07/20/07 at 09:29:58, King_Of_Old_School wrote:I'm pretty certain that Asai DDT is the industry term and we should keep it as that.
    I'm okay with calling it an Asai DDT if that's the common usage, I just wanted to make sure my interpretation of it as a swinging inverted DDT was correct.

    On 07/20/07 at 09:29:58, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Also, I'm not sure about this whole "flying" moves name. I like the names "flying clothesline" and "flying forearm" even if they are done out of the ropes. It's the common name of the move and I'm not a fan of renaming them. However, if the consensus is to change the names of these moves to keep a degree of consistency, then it's cool.
    It's the common name but I know it confused me for years.

    BTW, if a flying clothesline is not off the top rope, what is the common name for a clothesline off the top rope?

    On 07/20/07 at 09:34:52, King_Of_Old_School wrote:By the way, just to be picky, TNM has always listed elbowsmash as one word and brain buster as two.
    I think the reason elbow smash came about was that it brings them in line with the naming style of forearm smash & knee smash.  No idea on brain buster (there's gutbuster but then there's also fisherman buster) and for all I know its a misspelling on my part. :P

    Of all the naming issues though this is one I think that is of not a big deal one way or the other to me.

    On 07/20/07 at 15:16:57, King_Of_Old_School wrote:http://uk.geocities.com/big_shootah2004/TNMMoveList.xls

    Let me know what you think.
    Cradle suplex should be a fisherman suplex, or at least thats what I've always been told.

    Under Discus Punch, "spinning tornado punch" is redudant.  I think it the tornado punch name dates from the Texas Tornado (one of the Von Erichs?) who used it as a finisher.

    Followup on the inverted power bomb vs inverted powerslam thing: the way Wikipedia explains it (which I like) is that an inverted power bomb and powerslam are the same thing.  An Alley Oop would be more technically a reverse power bomb or backwards power bomb.  I like that, since there's nothing really "inverted" about an Alley Oop.

    What's the difference between a Fujiawara armbar and a regular armbar?

    I see some stuff on here that I've never heard of.  What are:
    Crash Thunder Buster
    cravate
    cravate suplex
    Cristo
    Crossface Halo
    stretch muffler
    JakePosted on 07/20/07 at 16:28:20

    On 07/20/07 at 16:19:39, LillaThrilla wrote:BTW, if a flying clothesline is not off the top rope, what is the common name for a clothesline off the top rope?
    Diving?

    Followup on the inverted power bomb vs inverted powerslam thing: the way Wikipedia explains it (which I like) is that an inverted power bomb and powerslam are the same thing.
    Always thought the inverted powerslam was the Dominator? While an inverted power bomb was the spin-out powerbomb?

    stretch muffler
    Brock Lock. Place the leg of your (downed) opponent around your neck and lift them up.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/20/07 at 18:52:12

    On 07/20/07 at 16:28:20, Jake wrote:Brock Lock. Place the leg of your (downed) opponent around your neck and lift them up.
    ...that's different from a half boston crab how?
    JakePosted on 07/20/07 at 19:33:37

    On 07/20/07 at 18:52:12, LillaThrilla wrote:

    ...that's different from a half boston crab how?
    Stretch Muffler (a seated version - I've seen it done standing)
    http://www.wrestlingencyclopedia.com/Moves4/brocklock.wmv

    Half Boston Crab
    http://www.wrestlingencyclopedia.com/Moves/singlelegcrab.wmv
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/20/07 at 23:46:04

    Does twisting = corkcscrew? Corkscrew moonsault = twisting moonsault? Corkscrew 450 splash = twisting 450 splash?

    Is a flying somersault splash and a 450 splash redudant?

    On 07/20/07 at 19:33:37, Jake wrote:
    Stretch Muffler (a seated version - I've seen it done standing)
    http://www.wrestlingencyclopedia.com/Moves4/brocklock.wmv

    Half Boston Crab
    http://www.wrestlingencyclopedia.com/Moves/singlelegcrab.wmv
    AH. Now it makes sense.

    P.S. Stretch muffler = OUCH.
    CarlzillaPosted on 07/21/07 at 02:04:29

    On 07/20/07 at 16:19:39, LillaThrilla wrote:
    What's the difference between a Fujiawara armbar and a regular armbar?
    A Fujiwara armbar is a reverse armbar. Here's the wikipedia definition.


    A grounded armbar with the opponent lying on his belly, the aggressor lies on the opponent's back, at a 90° angle to him, putting some or all of his weight on the opponent to prevent him from moving. The opponent's arm is then hooked and pulled back into his body, stretching the forearms, biceps and pectoral muscles. Variations of this can include clasping the opponent's hand instead of hooking the upper arm, for extra leverage and bridging out, while performing the move to increase leverage and immobilize the opponent. The move is named after Yoshiaki Fujiwara. Similar to or the same as Ude-Hishigi-Waki-Gatame in judo.
    JDragonPosted on 07/21/07 at 02:49:13

    On 07/20/07 at 23:46:04, LillaThrilla wrote:
    Is a flying somersault splash and a 450 splash redudant?
    I'd think so.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/21/07 at 13:27:52

    On 07/20/07 at 16:19:39, LillaThrilla wrote:
    BTW, if a flying clothesline is not off the top rope, what is the common name for a clothesline off the top rope?
    Flying clothesline is done bouncing off the ropes, flying lariat is a clothesline off the top rope. Oliver cleared this up for me a few years back.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/21/07 at 19:02:31

    On 07/21/07 at 13:27:52, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Flying clothesline is done bouncing off the ropes, flying lariat is a clothesline off the top rope. Oliver cleared this up for me a few years back.
    That is the most arbitrary and stupid naming in pro wrestling I think I have ever heard of.

    (I'm not disagreeing, just ranting.)

    So where does a Steinerline fall then?  Is it a clothesline where you leap without the aid of the ropes?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 07/21/07 at 19:31:34

    Crash Thunder Buster:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6SOSlGKVc

    Crossface Halo:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcYayGoHQRg

    (I know it's backyarders but you get the picture)

    Cravate:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l11IgyK0UY0

    The cravate is the hold that Chris Hero has applied before he hits the cutter. He does not have to be perched on the ropes to do it. A cravate suplex is simply a suplex performed starting from this hold.

    Cristo:
    http://www.luchawiki.org/index.php?title=Cristo

    Hope this helps.

    Also, I'll just combine Steinerline with clothesline.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/22/07 at 00:58:57

    Okay, I've finally finished updating the TNM 3:16 Moves List.

    http://www.joshism.net/tnm/moves.html

    I've tried to add pretty much all changes discussed here.

    I've also added a bunch of alternate/variant names and move counters in addition to whats been discussed here.  fixed a bunch of the elbow smash -> back elbow situations.

    I don't have 100% of everything on King of Old School's list (some of the more obscure indy moves mostly), at least not yet.

    I also have not yet done anything about the whole flying moves situation pending further discussion and figuring out what is what.  BTW, I know flying clothesline, flying forearm, and flying shoulderblock all frequently refer to "leaping" moves rather than top-rope moves.  Any others?
    triad4evrPosted on 07/29/07 at 08:31:28

    <Listens to the crickets chriping>

    Well, I've made use of all the stuff discussed so far- anybody got any more updates? I know at least submissions still seem to be a little out of whack to me, but maybe that's just me!
    LillaThrillaPosted on 07/29/07 at 20:55:17

    On 07/29/07 at 08:31:28, triad4evr wrote:<Listens to the crickets chriping>

    Well, I've made use of all the stuff discussed so far- anybody got any more updates? I know at least submissions still seem to be a little out of whack to me, but maybe that's just me!
    Working on the submissions right now actually.

    The biggest problem is that the vast majority of submissions seem to all be set around 50 damage.

    I'll have something up a little later...

    EDIT:
    And here it is...

    From TNM Intellihelp...
    figure four leglock = 55
    scorpion deathlock = 60

    ORIGINAL (as it currently appears on the list)
    nudo (knot submission) = 200
    ankelock = 150
    rear naked choke (bodyscissors choke sleeper) = 150
    dragon sleeper = 150
    front neck lock = 150
    straightjacket submission (Japanese strangehold / crossed-arms chinlock / gokuraku-gatame) = 145
    torture rack = 100
    double underhook submission (inverted full nelson / butterfly submission / Teioh Lock) = 100
    rolling legbar submission = 100
    testicular claw (clawhold to the groin) = 90
    stomach clawhold = 90
    triangle choke = 90
    fireman's carry short arm scissors (fireman's carry cross armbreaker) = 85
    backbreaker submission (over-the-knee backbreaker submission / Quebradora Lagunero) = 80
    STF (STFU) = 80
    crossface chickenwing (Buzzkiller / Norman Conquest) = 80
    cross knee scissors (IV Kneelock / crucifix kneebar) = 80
    rolling armbar submission = 75
    double armbar submission (Rings of Saturn) = 75
    crossface submission (Crippler Crossface / Nagata Lock II) = 75
    surfboard = 75
    clawhold = 75
    bow and arrow dragon sleeper = 70
    guillotine choke = 70
    double chickenwing submission (WAR special / tiger suplex submission) = 70
    Fujiwara armbar (reverse armbar submission) = 70
    Ziplock = 70
    reverse figure four leglock (side figure four leglock / Nagata Lock I) = 65
    headlock submission = 65
    Stretch Plum (inverted facelock abdominal stretch / inverted facelock swastika hold) = 65
    short arm scissors (jujigatme / cross armbreaker / cross armlock / arm grapevine / crucifix armbar / Code Red / Payne Killer) = 65
    choke sleeper = 60
    scorpion deathlock (Sharpshooter) = 60
    armbar = 60
    octopus hold (inverted abdominal stretch / inverted swastika hold / manji-gatame) = 60
    Canadian backbreaker (over-the-shoulder backbreaker submission) = 60
    choke lift (Hanging Tree) = 60
    figure four leglock = 55
    Texas Cloverleaf = 50
    Indian deathlock (inverted STF / Muta Lock) = 50
    figure four sleeper = 50
    half Boston = 50
    full nelson = 50
    forearm choke = 50
    chinlock deathlock = 50
    Boston crab = 50
    sleeperhold = 50
    elbow submission = 50
    armlock leglock submission (armlock hammerlock) = 50
    Gory special (back-to-back bacbreaker submission) = 50
    kneelock submission = 50
    nerve hold (trapezius hold / Vulcan nerve pinch) = 50
    3/4 nelson = 45
    bow and arrrow submission = 45
    abdominal stretch (swastika hold) = 45
    achilles tendon hold = 45
    cobra clutch (Million Dollar Dream) = 45
    hammerlock submission = 45
    kneebar (straight legbar submission) = 45
    bearhug = 40
    camel clutch (Steiner Recliner / quebradora de a caballo) = 40
    spinning toe hold = 40
    choke hold = 40
    headscissors submission = 35
    leg hammerlock submission (35)
    airplane spin submission = 30
    front facelock (candado invertido) = 30
    side headlock submission = 30
    choke against the ropes = 30
    thumb to the throat (Oriental Spike / Asiatic Spike / Ice Pick) = 30
    boot choke = 20
    rear chinlock = 55
    double reverse chinlock = 25
    wristlock (arm wringer) = 20

    REVISED
    nudo (knot submission) = 150
    ankelock = 150
    front neck lock = 120
    rear naked choke (bodyscissors choke sleeper) = 100
    torture rack = 100
    triangle choke = 90
    testicular claw (clawhold to the groin) = 90
    choke sleeper = 80
    crossface chickenwing (Buzzkiller / Norman Conquest) = 75
    crossface submission (Crippler Crossface / Nagata Lock II) = 70
    guillotine choke = 70
    double armbar submission (Rings of Saturn) = 70
    bow and arrow dragon sleeper = 65
    STF (STFU) = 65
    Ziplock = 65
    chinlock deathlock = 65
    Indian deathlock (inverted STF / Muta Lock) = 65
    fireman's carry short arm scissors (fireman's carry cross armbreaker) = 65
    short arm scissors (jujigatme / cross armbreaker / cross armlock / arm grapevine / crucifix armbar / Code Red / Payne Killer) = 65
    Stretch Plum (inverted facelock abdominal stretch / inverted facelock swastika hold) = 65
    cross knee scissors (IV Kneelock / crucifix kneebar) = 60
    scorpion deathlock (Sharpshooter) = 60
    dragon sleeper = 60
    reverse figure four leglock (side figure four leglock / Nagata Lock I) = 60
    armlock leglock submission (armlock hammerlock) = 60
    elbow submission (elbowlock) = 60
    Fujiwara armbar (reverse armbar submission) = 55
    figure four leglock = 55
    figure four sleeper (figure four headscissors)= 55
    rolling armbar submission = 55
    headscissors submission = 50
    cobra clutch (cobra sleeper / Million Dollar Dream) = 50
    octopus hold (inverted abdominal stretch / inverted swastika hold / manji-gatame) = 50
    armbar = 50
    backbreaker submission (over-the-knee backbreaker submission / Quebradora Lagunero) = 50
    rolling legbar submission = 50
    full nelson = 50
    double underhook submission (inverted full nelson / butterfly submission / Teioh Lock) = 45
    3/4 nelson = 45
    Texas Cloverleaf = 45
    Boston crab = 45
    kneebar (straight legbar submission) = 45
    kneelock submission = 40
    achilles tendon hold = 45
    bow and arrrow submission = 45
    Canadian backbreaker (over-the-shoulder backbreaker submission) = 45
    choke lift (Hanging Tree) = 45
    clawhold = 45
    surfboard = 45
    Gory special (back-to-back bacbreaker submission) = 40
    double chickenwing submission (WAR special / tiger suplex submission) = 40
    stomach clawhold = 40
    half Boston (half crab)= 40
    hammerlock submission = 40
    sleeperhold = 40
    straightjacket submission (Japanese strangehold / crossed-arms chinlock / gokuraku-gatame) = 40
    bearhug = 40
    spinning toe hold = 40
    abdominal stretch (swastika hold) = 40
    camel clutch (Steiner Recliner / quebradora de a caballo) = 40
    forearm choke = 40
    leg hammerlock submission = 35
    choke hold = 35
    boot choke = 30
    choke against the ropes = 30
    nerve hold (trapezius hold / Vulcan nerve pinch) = 30
    thumb to the throat (Oriental Spike / Asiatic Spike / Ice Pick) = 30
    side headlock submission (headlock submission) = 30
    front facelock (candado invertido) = 30
    airplane spin submission = 30
    double reverse chinlock = 25
    rear chinlock = 20
    wristlock (arm wringer) = 20

    Please critique the hell out of that because I'll admit my knowledge of some of this is a bit sketchy. And please correct me on anything that might be mislabeled as the same move. At the same time, is there anything that can be combined? (I'm thinking an kneebar and kneelock are the same thing...)

    FYI - for those that don't follow lucha, Nudo is a general term for a wide range of submissions that all involve tying the oppent's arms and legs into a knot. Check out the Lucha Wiki for some pics. I don't think its used outside of Mexico, but IIRC Rob Bihari swore it was essentially THE submission in Mexico hence the damage.

    I'm basing the damage levels off the Intellihelp damage levels for a figure four and a scorpion deathlock. But I wonder if maybe we may want to scale some of this stuff up.

    My thought is that basicly damage goes in the pattern of:
    1) moves sold as DEATH (anklelock, nudo)
    2) really legitly painful moves that end matches in UFC/MMA/Pride (choke sleepers)
    3) stuff that frequently is used to end matches (sharpshooter, figure four)
    4) other legitly painful stuff (armbar)
    5) other submissions that aren't real painful but are sold heavily anyway (clawhold, camel clutch)
    6) restholds (chinlock)

    Like I said, this is huge list so critique the hell out of it.
    JakePosted on 07/31/07 at 22:07:52

    The STFU is not an STF. It's an STS (Stepover Toehold Sleeper).

    Same as Cena's FU. It's more of a fireman's carry slam as opposed to a Death Valley Driver.

    Minor detail, I know, but it's the principle, dammit!
    JakePosted on 08/01/07 at 19:41:57

    'K, went through Lilla's list last night.

    elbowdrop - Bionic Elbow
    Thought the Bionic Elbow was done to a standing opponent? (Limited knowledge of The American Dream.)

    fireman's carry facebuster - Nightmare on Helms Street
    Really? My only knowledge of Helms would be from his WWE career, where the NHS is an inverted facelock (into an) elbowdrop (Eye of the Hurricane).

    fireman's carry flapjack - F5/Verdict
    Isn't a flapjack/pancake where the opponent goes over the shoulder of the wrestler, face-first to the mat? I've always thought of the F5/Verdict as a fireman's carry facebuster.

    fireman's carry neckbreaker - Shock Treatment
    fireman's carry power bomb - torture rack bomb
    fireman's carry slam - Angle Slam / Olympic Slam
    Fireman's carry =/= torture rack. That seems to be how we're going about this, anyways.

    flying somersault sitdown splash - (counter) roll away
    Counter should be a side step? Isn't this done to a standing opponent?

    rana - huracanrana/hurricanrana
    I believe 'rana' refers simply to the pinning position (double leg cradle)?

    running cruxifix power bomb - Hammer Bomb
    This is also the Awesome Bomb, right?

    side slam - (damage) 70
    The damage for this should be a bit higher. Say, 100-120?

    Victory Roll
    Victory Roll into a rana
    Doesn't a Victory Roll end in a rana? Otherwise, it would just be a headscissors wouldn't it?
    Memphis_VicePosted on 08/01/07 at 20:42:31

    On 08/01/07 at 19:41:57, Jake wrote:'K, went through Lilla's list last night.

    Thought the Bionic Elbow was done to a standing opponent? (Limited knowledge of The American Dream.)
    That's my beleif, too - which would make Bionic Elbow a synonym for a plain ol' elbowsmash. Of course, I've seen Dusty use elbowdrops as well as the elbowsmash to the head.

    On , Lilla's wrote:
    flying somersault sitdown splash - (counter) roll away
    On 08/01/07 at 19:41:57, Jake wrote:

    Counter should be a side step? Isn't this done to a standing opponent?
    Splashes are done to an opponent lying on the mat. Unless of course it's a Stinger Splash. :P

    For what it's worth, I've always heard the springboard version Rey Mysterio does to a
    standing opponent called a "seated senton".

    On 08/01/07 at 19:41:57, Jake wrote:
    Doesn't a Victory Roll end in a rana? Otherwise, it would just be a headscissors wouldn't it?
    There's already been some discussion of "does rana refer to a huracanrana or just the pinning
    cradle at the end?"...but I don't recall what the verdict was. I agree with your observation
    about the Victory Roll, though.
    Memphis_VicePosted on 08/01/07 at 20:48:18

    On 07/29/07 at 08:31:28, triad4evr wrote:<Listens to the crickets chriping>
    Don't be fooled by El Dandy's stocky physique...check out the number of Views this thread is getting! People are reading, even if they don't feel up to contributing/posting their opinion. My TNM machine is at a different physical location than my net access these days, so I'm not diving in headfirst, but I've certainly learned some stuff, and will one day soon go in and organize my moves database with some/most of the suggestions contained herein...for consolidating names and fixing damage values, if not setting proper counters all the way 'round. The crickets may strike up the band now and then, but the world is watching. :P Thanks guys and keep it up!
    JakePosted on 08/01/07 at 21:03:02

    On 08/01/07 at 20:42:31, Memphis_Vice wrote:There's already been some discussion of "does rana refer to a huracanrana or just the pinning cradle at the end?"
    Ah, I remember now. I think plain ol' "rana" won.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/02/07 at 02:24:39

    Rana is technically just the cradle at the end.  But TNM has used "rana" to refer to a hurricanrana basicly forever.  And since so many people screw up (and argue) the spelling I think leaving as plain ol rana is the safe bet.

    Does this move have an American name?  LuchaWiki just describes it as a "back-to-back torture rack" which sometimes is done spinning.  I also saw a version of it by Ultimo Dragon where he put Rey Mysterio in the the spinning version of that hold but finished it by dropping to his knees to turn it into a backbreaker move rather than a submission.  It's around the 5:30 mark in this video.

    Found the Bionic Elbow on YouTube.  Dusty stands next to the opponent and strikes down on the top of his opponent's head with his elbow.  It should probably be filed under elbow smash.

    You're right, Nightmare on Helms Street = Eye of the Hurricane.  I had never seen it so I just filed it incorrectly because I read it somewhere.  It'll be fixed on the next update.

    Regarding the fireman's carry vs torture rack thing, I know they are not exactly the same but the only different is how the guy is facing on your shoulders (in either case he's still on your shoulders and you're holding him by the leg and neck/head).  In the case of say a torture rack into a powerbomb vs a fireman's carry into a power bomb, its a pretty minor difference IMO.

    A flying sitdown splash is a sitdown/vertical splash off the top rope onto an opponent on the mat.  The dive (and in-ring?) move that Rey Rey does where he lands on an opponent in sitting posistion...I'm not really sure what to call that.  Flying sitdown bodyblock?

    On the Awesome Bomb thing: it's actually a Thunder Fire Power Bomb (so Wikipedia says).  Though I'm hesitant to list anything on this list as an Awesome Bomb, just for confusion reasons - there were several Awesome Bomb variations and I actually was under the impression than any power bomb variant by Mike Awesome was considered an Awesome Bomb.

    Just a few things I'd like to point out.  First, not every minor variation of a move needs to be in the list.  The move database doesn't need to be huge for one thing (and probably shouldn't be, for program stability reasons).  When considering a variant: is the damage different or is it countered differently or otherwise do some checkboxes within its entry on TNM's move database change (out of ropes, can be done behind an opponent, etc)?  If the answer to all three of those questions is no, consider strongly whether that variant really needs to be listed.  Also keep in mind move counters and Finisher-Is-Like moves and how more move variants in the database waters that down.  And don't forget the Special Move Wizard is your friend.

    Also, keep in mind when suggesting/critiquing move damage amounts that TNM automatically adds damage to a move if its done by a big wrestler on a smaller wrestler and/or if its a wrestler's finisher.

    Thanks for the feedback.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/02/07 at 04:15:28

    Moves List on TNM 3:16 has been updated:
    http://www.joshism.net/tnm/moves.html

    I think I have gotten all the changes discussed since last update, with the exception of the revised damage from that list of submission moves I posted the other day.

    I hope to have some more lists of suggested revisions soon, maybe tomorrow evening.
    JakePosted on 08/02/07 at 16:24:54

    On 08/02/07 at 02:24:39, LillaThrilla wrote:Rana is technically just the cradle at the end. But TNM has used "rana" to refer to a hurricanrana basicly forever. And since so many people screw up (and argue) the spelling I think leaving as plain ol rana is the safe bet.
    Okay, agreed.

    Does this move have an American name? LuchaWiki just describes it as a "back-to-back torture rack" which sometimes is done spinning. I also saw a version of it by Ultimo Dragon where he put Rey Mysterio in the the spinning version of that hold but finished it by dropping to his knees to turn it into a backbreaker move rather than a submission. It's around the 5:30 mark in this video.
    I'll refer to your quote below about move variations. I don't see any problem in just calling this move, or any of it's variations, a torture rack.

    You're right, Nightmare on Helms Street = Eye of the Hurricane. I had never seen it so I just filed it incorrectly because I read it somewhere. It'll be fixed on the next update.
    Glad to be of assistance. ;D

    Just a few things I'd like to point out. First, not every minor variation of a move needs to be in the list. The move database doesn't need to be huge for one thing (and probably shouldn't be, for program stability reasons). When considering a variant: is the damage different or is it countered differently or otherwise do some checkboxes within its entry on TNM's move database change (out of ropes, can be done behind an opponent, etc)? If the answer to all three of those questions is no, consider strongly whether that variant really needs to be listed. Also keep in mind move counters and Finisher-Is-Like moves and how more move variants in the database waters that down. And don't forget the Special Move Wizard is your friend.
    Heh, I was really militant on this point a few weeks ago and absolutely destroyed one of my TNM installs by deleting any and all "variant" moves. But, I wholeheartedly agree about keeping the moves database as clean and "simplified" as possible.

    Also, keep in mind when suggesting/critiquing move damage amounts that TNM automatically adds damage to a move if its done by a big wrestler on a smaller wrestler and/or if its a wrestler's finisher.
    This is just one of many things I tend to forget about in regards to TNM7.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/03/07 at 03:07:49

    I'll refer to your quote below about move variations. I don't see any problem in just calling this move, or any of it's variations, a torture rack.
    (Since these boards don't allow quote boxes inside quote boxes, if you're lost Jake was refering to my query about the Reinera).

    I'm not so sure. First off, the non-submission version is definitely a different move. ;) But also notice that in that match that Dragon catches Rey Jr running and puts him in the hold. Did Lex Luger ever put The Rack someone who was running?

    Also, check out these highlights. At about the 2:35ish mark, one of the guys gets put in the Reinera and after a moment in the hold reaches down and grabs the guy's leg and rolls him up (inside cradle?). Methinks you're not countering a torture rack with a cradle...

    Reinera vs torture rack aside, here's more stuff...

    PILEDRIVERS
    For reference...
    Tombstone = 90
    power bomb = 100

    A regular piledriver is currently set to 80 on my list. Using all this...

    top-rope tombstone piledriver (Tombstone off the top rope) = 160*
    top-rope piledriver (piledriver off the top rope) = 150
    Kryptonite Krunch (back piledriver / Air Raid Crash / Natural Driver / Reality Check / Schwein / Beach Break) = 130
    Vertebreaker (Kudoh Driver / inverted Tomikaze / back-to-back double underhook piledriver) = 120
    screwdriver (suplex into a piledriver / Steiner Screwdriver) = 110
    torture rack piledriver (Argentine piledriver / Psycho Driver) = 100**
    tombstone piledriver = 90
    jumping piledriver = 85
    cradle piledriver (Jerry Lynn's move) = 85
    inverted piledriver (sitdown Tombstone / Rikishi Driver) = 80
    double underhook piledriver (butterfly piledriver) = 80
    piledriver = 80
    facebuster (face piledriver / pancake / Trip to the Diamond Mine) = 70

    * In case you're wondering, yes I've seen at least one real match where someone did a super tombstone.
    ** Psycho Driver on a chair much?

    MICHINOKU DRIVER VARIANTS
    Falcon Arrow (suplex into a Michinoku Driver) = 120
    gorilla press driver (gorilla press into a Michinoku Driver) = 105
    pumphandle Michinoku Driver (Viagra Driver) = 100
    fireman's carry Michinoku Driver (Samoan Driver / fireman's carry into a Michinoku Driver) = 100
    inverted Michinoku Driver (K-Driller) = 100
    crossed-legs Michinoku Driver (Perfect Driver / CIMA Driver) = 95
    Michinoku Driver (bodyslam piledriver / Michinoku Driver II) = 90

    MOONSAULTS
    twisting moonsault (corkscrew moonsault) = 135
    moonsault (flying backflip splash) = 130
    twisting moonsault bodyblock (Marvelicity) = 130
    moonsault bodyblock = 125
    twisting Asai moonsault (corkscrew Asai moonsault) = 125
    Asai moonsault (Asai moonsault bodyblock) = 120
    springboard twisting moonsault = 115
    springboard moonsault (Lionsault / Quebrada) = 110
    moonsault from the second turnbuckle = 110
    springboard ropeflip moonsault = 105
    split legged moonsault (corner ropeflip moonsault) = 100
    ropeflip moonsault (ropeflip moonsault from the apron) = 100
    handspring moonsault = 95
    standing moonsault (backflip splash) = 90

    I feel the best way to resolve the moonsault dilemna is to have a springboard moonsault be a moonsault on a downed opponent and an Asai moonsault be against a standing opponent. Given that Ultimo Dragon - who is responsible for the name Asai moonsault - basicly always does it against a standing opponent (in the ring or out of the ring) it seems reasonable to me.

    TAKEDOWNS
    top-rope spinning headscissors = 160
    flying spinning headscissors (headscissors from the top rope) = 80
    springboard spinning headscissors = 70
    spinning headscissors = 60
    football tackle = 45
    legscissors takedown (bodyscissors takedown) = 40
    ipponzei (judo throw / shoulder throw) = 50
    flying armdrag takedown = 40
    moonsault armdrag takedown (moonsault into an armdrag) = 40
    springboard armdrag takedown = 40
    fireman's carry takedown = 40
    Japanese armdrag takedown (overhead armdrag) = 35
    corkscrew armdrag takedown = 35
    armdrag takedown = 30
    legsweep (legsweep takedown) = 30
    armbar takedown (single arm DDT) = 30
    single-leg takedown = 30
    Mexican armdrag takedown = 25
    half nelson takedown = 20
    3/4 nelson takedown = 20
    snap mare = 20
    dragon screw (legdrag takedown) = 15
    hair pull (hair pull takedown) = 10
    side headlock takedown = 10
    waistlock takedown = 10

    There's no double leg takedown on the list, which is a move used alot in UFC. But frankly I'm fine with just calling it a spinebuster. Sometimes those guys give the move the same force as a spinebuster.

    As always, correct me, disagree with me, tell me some of this stuff can be combined, etc etc. :)
    CrplsPosted on 08/03/07 at 06:51:35

    Given that Ultimo Dragon - who is responsible for the name Asai moonsault - basicly always does it against a standing opponent (in the ring or out of the ring) it seems reasonable to me.
    FWIW, I don't believe it's ever been called an Asai moonsault except by North American announcers. Always been called a quebrada as far as I know.

    A flying sitdown splash is a sitdown/vertical splash off the top rope onto an opponent on the mat.  The dive (and in-ring?) move that Rey Rey does where he lands on an opponent in sitting posistion...I'm not really sure what to call that.  Flying sitdown bodyblock?
    Rob added the Rey move as just a "flying sitdown" and "springboard sitdown," but I usually refer to as a Thesz press (as some announcers do as well--and I think Rob has called it that outside of the TNM context as well.)


    One not on the C(h)risto--the one on LuchaWiki and the move Dragon Kid (and Kotaor/Mushiking) do are different. Kid's is a spinning headscissors into a hanging octopus hold.

    I know urange is a popular term for it but I also read that this is also technically incorrect and stems from a mistranslation.  An urange is judo throw which is more like a side suplex (going backwards, rather than forwards like a Rock Bottom) and using that name would just serve as confusion IMO.
    Uranage is what Hase, Morishima, Iizuka and Jay Briscoe regularly do (well, when Hase wrestled.) It's basically an Exploder with grabbing the leg. I tend to use it for the Rock Bottom or what amount to Rock Bottoms that Daniels and Akitoshi Saito commonly do.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/03/07 at 19:38:04

    My thoughts:

    Armlock hammerlock and armlock leglock cannot be considered one and the same. The "armlock hammerlock" is now known worldwide under a different name - the kimura. The armlock leglock was something a few of the Pancrase guys used to do - leglock as in STF but then combined with a Fujiwara armbar.

    I think that the double underhook piledriver should be set higher, maybe 100.

    Dragon sleeper higher, 80?

    Falcon arrow is too high. 70 is about right I think.

    Hammerlock is too high. Change to 15? Same with headscissors submission, which I have set to 25. Could this be combined with neck-scissors?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/03/07 at 22:03:10

    Also, can someone please clear up the front-layout suplex/vertical facebuster/gourdbuster situation for me? Cheers.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/03/07 at 23:31:19

    Is a headscissors takedown (of the non-spinning variety) basicly just a Frankensteiner?

    On 08/03/07 at 22:03:10, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Also, can someone please clear up the front-layout suplex/vertical facebuster/gourdbuster situation for me? Cheers.
    Front layout suplex is Goldust's Curtain Call. You set them up for an inverted suplex but just lift them then drop them on their back. I always thought it was a lame move.

    Gourdbuster is a brainbuster. Whoops, just edumacated myself. Basicly, it's to a vertical suplex what a front layout suplex is to an inverted suplex: set them up for a vertical suplex but just lift them part way up them drop them on their chest/face.

    For alternative names, a gourdbuster is a suplex slam and an inverted suplex slam.

    Vertical facebuster is...good question. *goes into consultation* Based on the description I am given, a vertical facebuster is the same as a gourdbuster.

    On 08/03/07 at 06:51:35, Crpls wrote:Rob added the Rey move as just a "flying sitdown" and "springboard sitdown," but I usually refer to as a Thesz press (as some announcers do as well--and I think Rob has called it that outside of the TNM context as well.)
    I finally saw someone call the friggin move (ECW One Night Stand '06 I think) and they called it a "seated senton" which I like.

    On 08/03/07 at 19:38:04, King_Of_Old_School wrote:Falcon arrow is too high. 70 is about right I think.
    Falcon Arrow should be higher than a Michinoku Driver (since its a suplex into a Michinoku Driver), which I listed at 90.

    Should all Michinoku Driver variants come down too?
    CrplsPosted on 08/04/07 at 08:00:35

    Front layout suplex is Goldust's Curtain Call.  You set them up for an inverted suplex but just lift them then drop them on their back.  I always thought it was a lame move.

    Gourdbuster is a brainbuster.  Whoops, just edumacated myself.  Basicly, it's to a vertical suplex what a front layout suplex is to an inverted suplex: set them up for a vertical suplex but just lift them part way up them drop them on their chest/face.

    For alternative names, a gourdbuster is a suplex slam and an inverted suplex slam.
    Front-layout suplex and gourdbuster are the same thing--check the counters for a superplex. The Curtain Call is a version of a front layout suplex, but I guess you could call it a reverse.

    Vertical facebuster is...good question.  *goes into consultation*  Based on the description I am given, a vertical facebuster is the same as a gourdbuster.
    a vertical facebuster is what Matt Hardy occasionally does and Psicosis used to regularly in WCW. It's basically a Gourdbuster, except sitting out. Ricky Marvin does a version as the Pride Rock now too.

    I finally saw someone call the friggin move (ECW One Night Stand '06 I think) and they called it a "seated senton" which I like.
    A senton is done with the back, though. Stop listening to Michael Cole. :p

    Not that Joey Styles is any better, but he called a running version a Thesz press a while back when a Major Brother did it.



    Armlock hammerlock and armlock leglock cannot be considered one and the same. The "armlock hammerlock" is now known worldwide under a different name - the kimura. The armlock leglock was something a few of the Pancrase guys used to do - leglock as in STF but then combined with a Fujiwara armbar.
    Hrm, I always thought the armlock hammerlock (at least for TNM purposes) was where the guy hammerlocks one arm, and then (sort of) armbars the other. (I've seen it... well, not regularly, but common enough as a rest hold(ish) in Japan.)
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/04/07 at 17:52:47

    On 08/03/07 at 23:31:19, LillaThrilla wrote:Falcon Arrow should be higher than a Michinoku Driver (since its a suplex into a Michinoku Driver), which I listed at 90.
    I disagree. I think that the Michinoku Driver and other moves such as the jackhammer cause more damage in this day and age than a falcon arrow. What do others think?
    mamushiPosted on 08/04/07 at 18:18:47

    On 08/04/07 at 17:52:47, King_Of_Old_School wrote:

    I disagree. I think that the Michinoku Driver and other moves such as the jackhammer cause more damage in this day and age than a falcon arrow. What do others think?
    I would be inclined to believe that the Falcon Arrow would to more damage than a Michinoku Driver because you're being slammed from higher up.  Jackhammer I think would be more than a Falcon Arrow or at the very least even.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/04/07 at 18:25:43

    On 08/04/07 at 17:52:47, King_Of_Old_School wrote:I disagree. I think that the Michinoku Driver and other moves such as the jackhammer cause more damage in this day and age than a falcon arrow. What do others think?
    If a power bomb is 100 and a piledriver is 80, where would you put damage at for a powerslam and a Michinoku Driver?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/04/07 at 19:37:15

    Although the description of a Falcon arrow sounds devastating, I've never seen it look that impressive. It just looks like a vertical suplex drop between the attacker's legs. I think the Michinoku Driver, power bomb and jackhammer all look more damaging and result in the finish of matches more often.

    I would have the damage of powerslam and falcon arrow to be pretty much even, followed by jackhammer, power bomb and Michinoku Driver.
    CrplsPosted on 08/05/07 at 02:33:36

    I would be inclined to believe that the Falcon Arrow would to more damage than a Michinoku Driver because you're being slammed from higher up.  Jackhammer I think would be more than a Falcon Arrow or at the very least even.
    Okay--but is the point of this project to make damage represent what they'd do in a "shoot" environment or how they're actually perceived in wrestling?

    Because the MD2 is still a killer move for lots of wrestlers, while the Falcon Arrow amounts to a mid-match move for Kanemoto and KENTA for the most part. (Other than KENTA's top-rope version which he seems to have shelved.)
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/05/07 at 10:51:58

    On 08/05/07 at 02:33:36, Crpls wrote:

    Okay--but is the point of this project to make damage represent what they'd do in a "shoot" environment or how they're actually perceived in wrestling?

    Because the MD2 is still a killer move for lots of wrestlers, while the Falcon Arrow amounts to a mid-match move for Kanemoto and KENTA for the most part. (Other than KENTA's top-rope version which he seems to have shelved.)
    Exactly. The Falcon arrow is mainly used as a transition move these days, or as a setup for an aerial move.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/05/07 at 18:15:28

    LEGDROPS / ELBOWDROPS / KNEEDROPS / FISTDROPS
    flying somersault corkscrew legdrop (Tumbleweed / Spiral Tap) = 160
    flying somersault legdrop (Harlem Hangover) = 155
    flying legdrop (top rope legdrop / diving legdrop / guillotine legdrop / Alabama Jam) = 150
    springboard legdrop = 140
    slingshot legdrop = 130
    moonsault legdrop (flying backflip legdrop) = 120
    shooting star legdrop (Crossfire) = 120
    reverse flying elbowdrop = 110
    flying elbowdrop (elbowdrop off the top rope / diving elbowdrop / Panty Drop Elbow) = 100
    springboard elbowdrop = 95
    slingshot elbowdrop (slingshot swandive elbow) = 90
    elbowdrop from the second rope = 80
    flying kneedrop (kneedrop off the top rope / diving kneedrop / Bombscare Kneedrop) = 90
    flying fistdrop = 80
    inverted facelock elbowdrop (Old School Explulsion / Final Cut / Eye of the Hurricane / Nightmare on Helms Street) = 80
    slingshot kneedrop = 70
    somersault elbowdrop = 50
    corkscrew elbowdrop (spinning elbowdrop) = 45
    elbowdrop = 40
    fistdrop = 40
    kneedrop (Old Glory) = 40
    somersault legdrop = 40
    corkscrew legdrop = 35
    legdrop = 30

    NECKBREAKERS & CUTTERS
    top-rope cutter (top-rope Ace Crusher / top-rope Diamond Cutter) = 140
    top-rope neckbreaker = 120
    flying somersault neckbreaker (flipping neckbreaker / Buff Blockbuster) = 110
    Diamond Dust (inverted swinging DDT into a Stunner / forward somersault cutter) = 110
    Twist of Fate (reverse neckbreaker into a cutter) = 110
    fireman's carry cutter (TKO / Samoan Cutter) = 110
    swinging inverted neckbreaker (rolling cutter / Spin Doctor / Last Rites / Roll the Dice) = 105
    cutter (Ace Crusher / Diamond Cutter) = 100
    reverse Stunner (Franchiser / Bareback) = 100
    Stunner (sitdown cutter) = 100
    Gory neckbreaker (Gory Special neckbreaker / Spinal Shock / Widow's Peak) = 100
    cobra clutch neckbreaker = 95
    swinging neckbreaker (Swing Time) = 95
    fireman's carry neckbreaker (Shock Treatment) = 90
    reverse neckbreaker (Rude Awakening) = 85
    arm trap neckbreaker (Regal Cutter / Union Jack Neckbreaker) = 65
    jawbreaker = 50

    I think I got arm trap neckbreaker's damage off King of Old School's list and that might mean the rest of the necbkreakers need to be scaled down in damage?

    As for the cutter/stunner/jawbreaker thing, what I'm going with is a jawbreaker is a counter move for a sleeper, full nelson, etc and usually involves head-to-jaw contact rather than shoulder-to-jaw. Stunner is any sitdown cutter like the Stone Cold Stunner, while a cutter is any other cutter move (one or two handed) like Ace Crusher and Diamond Cutter variants. There's not alot different, but there is a little. A cutter can be counter move in the corner and can be done on a chair while a Stunner can't. I think cutter should probably also have "can be done while opponent is running" checked.

    On a sorta related noted: running neckbreaker drop is set to 150. As best I can tell, it's actually not a neckbreaker variant at all but is instead a lariat takedown / bulldog lariat / Hart Attack. Since a regular lariat is 60, I would think this should be only like 80?

    OTHER "BREAKERS" (non-submission)
    armbreaker = 50
    kneebreaker = 45
    atomic drop (tailbone breaker) = 45
    inverted atomic drop = 45
    double knee backbreaker (Lung Blower / Back Cracker) = 90
    gutwrench gutbuster (gutwrench stomachbreaker) = 80
    pumphandle backbreaker = 80
    double underhook backbreaker = 75
    spinning backbreaker = 75
    fireman's carry gutbuster (over-the-shoulder stomachbreaker) = 75
    backbreaker = 70
    gutbuster (stomachbreaker) = 70
    shoulderbreaker = 55

    DROPKICKS
    flying somersault dropkick = 85
    flying dropkick (missile dropkick / top-rope dropkick / Harlem Heatseeker) = 80
    springboard somersault dropkick = 80
    springboard dropkick = 75
    tiger feint kick (6-1-9) = 75
    dropkick from the second rope = 60
    dropkick to the head = 55
    dropkick to the knee = 50
    dropkick = 40

    SLAMS
    top-rope fallaway slam (top-rope Blockbuster Slam) = 160
    top-rope spinebuster slam = 140
    top-rope choke slam = 130
    top-rope powerslam (flying powerslam) = 120
    spinebuster slam from the second rope = 120
    cross-armed Iconoclasm (cross-armed inverted crucifix slam off the top rope) = 115
    Iconoclasm (inverted crucifix slam off the top rope) = 110
    spinning side slam = 105
    side slam (Rock Bottom) = 100
    spinebuster slam = 100
    Jackhammer (suplex into a powerslam) = 100
    fallaway slam (Blockbuster Slam / table top suplex) = 90
    choke slam = 85
    Angle Slam (Olympic Slam / twisting fireman's carry backward slam) = 80
    somersault slam (Kamikaze) = 80
    tilt-a-whirl slam = 80
    fireman's carry slam (F-U / Simonizer) = 75
    running powerslam (running slam, Oklahoma slam) = 75
    pumphandle slam (pumphandle powerslam / crotch slam / Meltdown) = 70
    powerslam = 70
    Samoan Drop (Mountain Bomb / fireman's carry backward slam) = 70
    front slam (falling powerslam / reverse fallaway slam) = 65
    full nelson slam = 60
    cobra clutch slam = 55
    bodyslam = 30

    Main changes from how things where on the list: I tracked down on YouTube what I'm pretty sure was an Iconoclasm and while it looks cool it certainly doesn't look very painful so I put the damage down on that. I also switched damage between a choke slam (from 70 to 90) and a powerslam (90 to 70), which I think is more appropriate.

    DDTs
    top-rope DDT = 150
    top-rope inverted DDT = 140
    Diamond Dust (inverted swinging DDT into a Stunner) = 120
    cradle DDT = 110
    springboard Tornado DDT (springboard swinging DDT) = 110
    leaping Tornado DDT (leaping Tornado DDT) = 100
    Tornado DDT (swinging DDT) = 95
    springboard DDT = 90
    jumping DDT = 90
    slingshot into a DDT = 90
    fireman's carry DDT (fireman's carry into a DDT) = 90
    Asai DDT (Dragon DDT / swinging inverted DDT / inverted swinging DDT) = 85
    armlock legsweep DDT (Devil Lock DDT) = 85
    floatover DDT (backspin DDT) = 85
    double arm DDT (doule underhook DDT) = 85
    spinning DDT = 85
    DDT = 80
    Asai moonsault into an inverted DDT (Stylin DDT) = 75
    inverted DDT (reverse DDT / Scorpion Death Drop) = 70

    I'm still a bit confused by the swinging DDT vs leaping swinging DDT thing (where's Rob Bihari when you need him to explain his move-naming logic?) but I went with Tornado DDT = swinging DDT thing as that seems the general opinion...

    And just a reminder that a single arm DDT is an armbar takedown.

    Critique, correct, combine, etc etc.

    We're almost through my list after this...
    CrplsPosted on 08/05/07 at 18:48:59

    flying somersault corkscrew legdrop (Tumbleweed / Spiral Tap) = 160
    Tumbleweed and Spiral Tap are different moves (technically.) They should have the same amount of damage, though, I suppose.

    flying somersault legdrop (Harlem Hangover) = 155
    flying legdrop (top rope legdrop / diving legdrop / guillotine legdrop / Alabama Jam) = 150
    springboard legdrop = 140
    slingshot legdrop = 130
    moonsault legdrop (flying backflip legdrop) = 120
    shooting star legdrop (Crossfire) = 120
    Am I the only one who sees something funny about a springboard legdrop being at 140, but the rest lower--especially the Crossfire? Actually, IMO, all the legdrops there are wonky. 150 for a flying legdrop?

    inverted facelock elbowdrop (Old School Explulsion / Final Cut / Eye of the Hurricane / Nightmare on Helms Street) = 80


    Just ftr, the Old School Expulsion is an inverted facelock into a reverse neckbreaker.

    On a sorta related noted: running neckbreaker drop is set to 150.  As best I can tell, it's actually not a neckbreaker variant at all but is instead a lariat takedown / bulldog lariat / Hart Attack.  Since a regular lariat is 60, I would think this should be only like 80?
    I'd stick it below lariat by 5 or 10, personally. Maybe the same. Running/jumping neckbreaker drop is the correct name, however.

    Main changes from how things where on the list: I tracked down on YouTube what I'm pretty sure was an Iconoclasm and while it looks cool it certainly doesn't look very painful so I put the damage down on that.
    I disagree if only because it's primarily CIMA's move and the Venus > Iconoclasm > Mad Splash combo has always been pretty significant and the Iconoclasm is a large part of that.

    Asai DDT (Dragon DDT / swinging inverted DDT / inverted swinging DDT) = 85
    The Asai DDT is a backflip reverse DDT, or standing Sliced Bread/Shiranui, not a swinging inverted DDT.

    I'm still a bit confused by the swinging DDT vs leaping swinging DDT thing (where's Rob Bihari when you need him to explain his move-naming logic?) but I went with Tornado DDT = swinging DDT thing as that seems the general opinion...
    A leaping swinging DDT is where the guy leaps from the second-rope, grabs the guy around the neck and swings into the DDT. That's why I asked for the counters--an atomic drop (or an inverted atomic drop it should be--Rob is a dork and deleted the inverted because it's a faul in Lucha :p), so it confirmed it for me. (I am 100% I asked Rob this back when new exports with it came out.)
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/05/07 at 19:41:19

    On 08/05/07 at 18:48:59, Crpls wrote:Tumbleweed and Spiral Tap are different moves (technically.) They should have the same amount of damage, though, I suppose.
    How so?

    Am I the only one who sees something funny about a springboard legdrop being at 140, but the rest lower--especially the Crossfire? Actually, IMO, all the legdrops there are wonky. 150 for a flying legdrop?
    Yeah, the legdrop damage seemed inflated, but it was inflated across the board so I largely left it alone for the moment.

    If a flying elbowdrop is 100, perhaps a flying legdrop is 110 and go from there?

    I disagree if only because it's primarily CIMA's move and the Venus > Iconoclasm > Mad Splash combo has always been pretty significant and the Iconoclasm is a large part of that.
    What would you put the damage at?

    The Asai DDT is a backflip reverse DDT, or standing Sliced Bread/Shiranui, not a swinging inverted DDT
    I asked earlier in either this thread or the What Are These Moves thread about an Asai DDT and based on the description I was like "so basing a swinging inverted DDT" and someone was like "yeah but nobody calls it that".

    Springboard backflip inverted DDT does sound more correct.

    A leaping swinging DDT is where the guy leaps from the second-rope, grabs the guy around the neck and swings into the DDT. That's why I asked for the counters--an atomic drop (or an inverted atomic drop it should be--Rob is a dork and deleted the inverted because it's a faul in Lucha :p), so it confirmed it for me. (I am 100% I asked Rob this back when new exports with it came out.)
    If he's jumping from the 2nd rope, wouldn't that make it a springboard swinging DDT? What would a springboard leaping swinging DDT be then? And which one is the real Tornado DDT?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/05/07 at 20:04:58

    When I'm making an export of someone who executes a tornado DDT, I just give them a swinging DDT as their cross-corner move. No point in creating a separate move for it when you can use that option.

    I agree with Josh about the Iconoclasm. I think we should just keep Asai DDT as a separate move as all the indy kids are doing it these days. It's just a standing sliced bread #2.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Uhh4MIwjg
    CrplsPosted on 08/05/07 at 20:16:18

    Springboard backflip inverted DDT does sound more correct.
    It's standing, no springboard. He holds the guy like he would for a stunner then jumps up and over with a backflip and brings the guy down with a reverse DDT.

    If he's jumping from the 2nd rope, wouldn't that make it a springboard swinging DDT?  What would a springboard leaping swinging DDT be then?  And which one is the real Tornado DDT?
    Erm, no. Springboard moves are where the guy springboards off the top rope, usually somewhere closer to the middle between two turnbuckles.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/05/07 at 22:03:53

    On 08/05/07 at 20:16:18, Crpls wrote:It's standing, no springboard. He holds the guy like he would for a stunner then jumps up and over with a backflip and brings the guy down with a reverse DDT.
    Ah, well, there's the point of confusion then.  The whole
    "Asai" thing threw me.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/05/07 at 22:08:09

    Okay folks, here's the last of my list...

    FACESLAMS
    flying bulldog (top-rope bulldog / Steiner Bulldog) = 120
    springboard bulldog = 110
    Tomikaze (reverse double underhook facebuster / Kid Krusher / Unprettier / Tommyhawk) = 110
    springboard sitdown faceslam (springboard layout faceslam) = 110
    double underhook faceslam (Pedigree / Angel's Wings / Cure / Slapjack) = 105
    sitdown faceslam (layout faceslam / X-Factor) = 100
    Amaze Impact (reverse choke slam facebuster) = 100
    Hotshot (flapjack onto the ropes / Stungun) = 90
    Crash Thunder Buster (belly-to-back suplex into a wheelbarrow facebuster / CTB / Berkulator) = 90
    slingshot facebuster = 90
    fireman's carry facebuster (F5 / Verdict) = 80
    fireman's carry flapjack = 80
    shoulder lift flapjack = 80
    vertical facebuster (Gourdbuster) = 80
    wheelbarrow facebuster (Face Eraser) = 75
    facebuster (pancake / face-first piledriver / Trip to the Diamond Mine) = 70
    Rocker Dropper (legdrop faceslam / Fame Asser) = 70
    bulldog = 70
    faceslam = 65
    flapjack = 30

    Most noteable change was cutting the damage the slingshot and vertical facebusters down to being in line with everything else.

    LEG LARIATS
    flying spinning leg lariat (top-rope spinning leg lariat) = 120
    springboard spinning leg lariat = 110
    handspring leg lariat = 60
    spinning leg lariat = 45
    Asai leg lariat (springboard leg lariat) = 40

    CORNER SPLASHES
    Stinger Splash (jumping avalanche) = 50
    Vader attack (avalanche earringer) = 50
    avalanche = 40
    Bronco Buster = 20

    I cut the Bronco Buster way down because its pretty much a comedy move.  Avalanche had been at 90 and Stinger Splash at 100 with Vader attack only 50.  I think that was more realistic nobody is really winning matches with avalanche variants and the big guys doing them will automaticly deal more damage anyway.

    BODYBLOCKS
    moonsault bodyblock = 125
    flying somersault bodyblock = 95
    springboard somersault bodyblock = 90
    flying cross body press = 85
    slingshot bodyblock = 70
    springboard cross body press = 60
    handspring bodyblock = 50
    cross body block = 40
    somersault bodyblock = 20

    AXHANDLES
    flying axhandle (double axhandle off the top rope) = 80
    springboard axhandle = 60
    charging axhandle bodyblock = 50
    double axhandle chop = 40

    KNEE STRIKES
    Destiny Hammer (knee smash off the top rope) = 130
    springboard Destiny Hammer (springboard knee smash) = 130
    knee to the groin = 50
    jumping knee (jumping knee smash) = 45
    knee to the face = 40
    kneelift = 30

    DVDs
    top-rope Death Valley Driver = 180
    Burning Hammer (inverted Death Valley Driver) = 130
    Death Valley Driver (DVD / Spicolli Driver / Death Valley Bomb) = 120

    Not sure about the damage levels here.

    LEGSWEEPS
    cobra clutch Russian legsweep = 80
    reverse Russian legsweep (Flatliner / DOA / Novacain) = 75
    full nelson faceslam (Memory Lane) = 75
    forward Russian legsweep (legsweep faceslam / Stroke / Breakdown) = 70
    Russian legsweep (backward Russian legsweep) = 60
    legsweep = 30

    SHOULDERBLOCKS
    shoulderblock off the top rope (top-rope shoulderblock / diving shoulderblock / Patriot Missile) = 60
    flying shoulderblock* = 50
    slingshot shoulderblock = 40
    shoulderblock (shoulder charge) = 30

    * leaping out of ropes; not off the top rope

    MOVES ONLY USES AS COUNTERS
    backdrop = 40
    knee pull-up (knees up) = 40
    roll away = 30
    rollover (rolls over) = 30
    high cross body block = 30
    side step = 20
    duck-down move = 10
    throw-off = 10
    kick-off = 10
    go-behind = 1
    slidedown (slide down the back) = 1

    I'm thinking for damage purposes there should also be a throw-off the top rope and backdrop off the top rope?

    MISC
    flying somersault headbutt = 135
    flying headbutt (diving headbutt / swan dive headbutt) = 130
    slingshot into the turnbuckle (catapault throw into the turnbuckle) = 130
    jumping neck snap = 85
    neck snap = 80
    gorilla press (military press) = 75
    slingshot (catapault / catapault throw) = 70
    flying tope (flying side headbutt to a standing opponent) = 70
    earringer (bell clap) = 65
    springboard Thesz press = 60
    springboard reverse tope (springboard back headbutt to a standing opponent) = 50
    flying butt bump (flying hip attack / jumping hit attack) = 50*
    Thesz press = 40
    butt bump (butt butt / hip attack) = 40
    ropeburn = 30
    headsmash into the turnbuckle (turnbuckle smash) = 20

    * leaping out of ropes; not off the top rope

    Commments, corrections, critiques?
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/07/07 at 20:24:42

    What on earth is a Sammartino slingshot?!
    CrplsPosted on 08/07/07 at 21:16:05

    IIRC, Oliver once told me it was a powerbomb lift into a hotshot/stun gun.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/07/07 at 23:40:29

    On 08/07/07 at 21:16:05, Crpls wrote:IIRC, Oliver once told me it was a powerbomb lift into a hotshot/stun gun.
    So a Hotshot Alley Oop?

    On an unrelated note: the move that Scorpio does to Benoit at around the 6+ minute mark - is that a leg hammerlock?

    Ventura making fun of Schivonte's inability to call moves right is pretty funny, given he was still screwing them up by the end of the decade and this was '93. :P

    What's the different between a slingshot / catapault throw and a wheelbarrow/wheelbarrel suplex?
    JakePosted on 08/09/07 at 04:42:18

    On 08/07/07 at 23:40:29, LillaThrilla wrote:What's the different between a slingshot / catapault throw and a wheelbarrow/wheelbarrel suplex?
    Catapult has opponent facing up, wheelbarrow has them facing down.

    Catapult is normally done into the turnbuckle pads, while a wheelbarrow is like a German suplex.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/11/07 at 21:48:43

    http://joshism.net/tnm/moves.html

    And the grand update concludes.  That should be just about everything we've discused and I've posted, which I think covers pretty much everything in my databases.  Please look over this list and suggest anything you feel can be combined, anything you feel is incorrect, and especially suggest any countermoves that aren't on the list.

    I've added italicized notes next to move names when
    A) the move is "flying [something]" but is not a top-rope move
    B) the move is only done as a corner move
    C) the move is only ever done as a counter move and thus should NEVER be listed in a wrestler's move list under any circumstances.

    Examples of A: I left flying clothesline and flying lariat as out-of-the-ropes leaping variants of their respective moves and added "clothesline from the top rope" and "lariat from the top rope".

    Regarding C: high knee, high kick, and high cross body are supposed to be counter-only variants of their respecitve moves (knee, kick, and cross body press).  The key difference is that a high knee can't be side stepped, a high kick can't be ducked, and a cross body press can't be ducked.  The whole point of those moves is to avoid screwy situations like "A attempts a powerslam on B, but B counters with a cross body block.  In turn, A ducks down." :P

    I've added some moves to the list which I saw or heard of various wrestlers doing as non-finishers.

    I'm sure there are other moves not on this list that people (especially King of Old School Exports) feel need to be added so now is probably a good time to discuss those.
    CrplsPosted on 08/11/07 at 23:24:03

    The whole point of those moves is to avoid screwy situations like "A attempts a powerslam on B, but B counters with a cross body block.  In turn, A ducks down."
    I've always just taken these things as the guy didn't actually go for the move, the opponent just rebounded and hit the cross body. Same with moves that the guy ducks his head on and gets countered with a kick to the head--he never actually goes for a back body drop, spinebuster, etc, it's just how TNM has to work.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/12/07 at 05:30:10

    On 08/04/07 at 08:00:35, Crpls wrote:A senton is done with the back, though. Stop listening to Michael Cole. :p

    Not that Joey Styles is any better, but he called a running version a Thesz press a while back when a Major Brother did it.
    Found the name for Rey's move - the lucha name at least: Silla (or La Silla).
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/16/07 at 02:50:01

    I'm going through my TNM move database implimenting changes and I just wanted to point a couple things out:

    • Alot of submission moves don't seem to have "May End Match" checked. Maybe its just my database, but its something to look out for. I seem to have a recollection of one of the earlier builds of TNM had a problem (since fixed by Oliver?) that matches were ending too often by submission but my memory is fuzzy...
    • As someone else pointed out in this thread, the "...Behind Opponent" checkboxes only apply if both wrestlers would be standing. So for a full nelson both should be checked, for a German suplex only the first should be checked, and for a splash neither should be checked.
    • Based on the Intellihelp for the "Can Be Done From" checkboxes, the boxes apply not just for flying moves but also for moves where the opponent is on the location with the attacker (superplex is given as an example of a move that should have "Can be Done From Top of Cage" checked).
    • Don't forget a/an/the at the beginning of a move's name. I think most people know this now but I wanted to make sure.
    • "Outside The Ring" should only be checked if the move could be performed outside the ring AND it would be sensible to perform it in a normal match (i.e. NOT Falls Count Anywhere). So rollup-type moves should NOT have this checked as doing them outside the ring except in a FCA.
    • "Counter 1" and "Counter 2" are only for counters that ANY wrestler should be able to do. "Counters 3-??" is where you set the Style Specific Counters for a move and that's where counters that not everyone should have are listed. Ex: Counter 1 on a power bomb should be a backdrop because anyone can do that. For Style Specific Counters, rana should be listed for a High Flyer and a kneebar for a Shooter. Backdrop should also technically be listed again for any appropriate styles that would use it (Technician, Brawler, Powerhouse, and Old Style I think). In addition to being important for counters than can only be used by a certain style, Style Specific Counters are used if a wrestler has "Style Specific Counters" only checked (though this is used pretty rarely I think - mostly when creating "legit" fighters?). Also, wrestlers will prefer to use Style Specific Counters over generic counters if one exists.
    • In case anyone doesn't know: Technician is someone like Bret Hart, Wrestler means amateur mat wrestlers (Kurt Angle, early Steiner brothers), and Shooter is UFC/shootfighting style. I think the others are pretty self-explanatory. There is some overlap between styles - Wrestlers and Shooters both use takedowns for example.
    • Automatic Pinfall Attempt should only be checked if the move ends in some kind of pinning hold. This would include rollups and bridging suplexes. For a rana this should be checked, for a Frankensteiner it should not. For a power bomb no, for a jack-knife power bomb yes (which is a powerbomb into a jackknife pinning hold NOT Nash's finisher (which is just a normal power bomb)). So most non-submission moves should actually be set to "Neither".
    • Breakable W/ only applies to submission holds.
    • No Rope Break should only be checked on moves like a nudo where there it is completely impossible to get to the ropes.


    Hope that is helpful to some people out there.
    CrplsPosted on 08/16/07 at 07:03:57

    # Automatic Pinfall Attempt should only be checked if the move ends in some kind of pinning hold.  This would include rollups and bridging suplexes.  For a rana this should be checked, for a Frankensteiner it should not.  For a power bomb no, for a jack-knife power bomb yes (which is a powerbomb into a jackknife pinning hold NOT Nash's finisher (which is just a normal power bomb)).
    Do this for all moves in the database--and then watch matches. You will find that powerbombs, brainbusters, tombstones, etc should have "automatic pinfall" checked. (a lot of guys hold on with a powerbomb anyway, tbf.)
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/18/07 at 03:40:43

    On 08/16/07 at 07:03:57, Crpls wrote:Do this for all moves in the database--and then watch matches. You will find that powerbombs, brainbusters, tombstones, etc should have "automatic pinfall" checked. (a lot of guys hold on with a powerbomb anyway, tbf.)
    I'll take note of that as I edit my database.  Thanks for the heads-up.

    I've done some further tweaking of the Moves list...

    http://www.joshism.net/tnm/moves.html

    Also, I started a similiar thread in this forum to discuss refining the Dives Database.  Go there, check out the link, and discuss...please. :)
    CrplsPosted on 08/18/07 at 03:42:18

    Yeah, I used to agree with your logic and edited my database ages ago... then I noticed when watching matches, powerbombs, brainbusters, etc, became the same as bodyslams, back suplexes, etc. Pinfall attempts were rare after them, then I realized why so many non-pinning moves had it checked. :)
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/18/07 at 21:24:43

    What should the correct maximum height difference be on a vertical suplex and similiar?

    How about Frankensteiner/rana variants?

    This seems to vary from move to move, including sometimes being NA which I'm pretty darn sure isn't right.

    EDIT:
    Also, what's the difference between a neck snap and a jumping neck snap? Given the description for the neck snap in Wikipedia (Curt Hennig's move), it seems like jumping neck snap is redudant...

    And what is a kneeling headbutt? I was thinking it was the obvious answer (you kneel then headbutt someone). But the only counter listed is a kneeling headbutt and the version in my database says the opponent must be on the mat (???) so that doesn't fit.

    If armlock = armbar, I assume kneelock = kneebar?
    Memphis_VicePosted on 08/18/07 at 23:13:13

    On 08/11/07 at 21:48:43, LillaThrilla wrote: The whole point of those moves is to avoid screwy situations like "A attempts a powerslam on B, but B counters with a cross body block.  In turn, A ducks down." :P
    Blown spot. Manually deduct 1/4*.  ;D
    CrplsPosted on 08/19/07 at 00:13:53

    Also, what's the difference between a neck snap and a jumping neck snap?  Given the description for the neck snap in Wikipedia (Curt Hennig's move), it seems like jumping neck snap is redudant...
    Aye, redundant.

    And what is a kneeling headbutt?  I was thinking it was the obvious answer (you kneel then headbutt someone).  But the only counter listed is a kneeling headbutt and the version in my database says the opponent must be on the mat (Huh) so that doesn't fit.
    The only explanation for a kneeling headbutt I can think of would be a "falling" headbutt, except just falling to your knees instead of all the way onto your stomach/body.

    If armlock = armbar, I assume kneelock = kneebar?
    Pretty much.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/19/07 at 17:13:19

    What are "leg scissors" supposed to be? Another situation where I have different stuff checked off in different TNMs and they conflict and in one case don't even make sense.

    Is leg scissors just another name for a headscissors takedown? Or for a headscissors submission? Or is it scissors takedown but against the legs instead of the head/neck (this is what I originally thought it was)?

    Of course, if its a scissors takedown against the legs, does that make it essentially the same as a dragon screw?

    A Japanese armdrag is an overhead armdrag. What's a Mexican armdrag?

    What is an inverted Michinoku Driver? I had been told a K-Driller / Greetings From Ashbury Park were that but research says they are other moves. I've seem some websites that refer to Kryptonite Krunch as an inverted Michinoku Driver, which I can kinda understand why but I don't know that is actually correct. I would think based on the name its sort of a reversed bodyslam lift then faceslam them while sitting down, but I don't know if that's correct.
    pszPosted on 08/19/07 at 19:42:59

    I've always known "Leg Scissors" to be when you use your legs to squeeze someone (neck or stomach usually) and thus as a submission move.


    The takedown method would be when you use it, twist, and use that momentum to bring a standing person down fast and hard.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/19/07 at 21:36:30

    I know what a chinlock / rear chinlock is. What is a double reverse chinlock?

    On 08/19/07 at 19:42:59, psz wrote:I've always known "Leg Scissors" to be when you use your legs to squeeze someone (neck or stomach usually) and thus as a submission move.
    Ok.  And that would be on the list as a headscissors submission.
    CrplsPosted on 08/19/07 at 22:27:52

    a double reverse chinlock is just a reverse chinlock. I assume "double" because you use both arms? I actually finally heard it called a "double reverse chinlock" by a commentator a few months ago, but I don't remember which now. It was an older show so maybe an old WWF or WCW show.
    King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/20/07 at 12:12:12

    On 08/19/07 at 17:13:19, LillaThrilla wrote:What are "leg scissors" supposed to be? Another situation where I have different stuff checked off in different TNMs and they conflict and in one case don't even make sense.

    Is leg scissors just another name for a headscissors takedown? Or for a headscissors submission? Or is it scissors takedown but against the legs instead of the head/neck (this is what I originally thought it was)?

    Of course, if its a scissors takedown against the legs, does that make it essentially the same as a dragon screw?
    A headscissors is where you scissor the head, a short arm scissors is where you scissor the arm, so by that logic a leg scissors must be a submission hold done on the leg.

    Rear chinlock = double reverse chinlock.
    CrplsPosted on 08/20/07 at 20:16:33

    Yeah, but since when does wrestling always consistently follow logic? :)
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/26/07 at 17:56:44

    Anyone have thoughts on the kick to the head and big boot being seperate moves debate?

    I used to combine them but nowadays I feel they should be seperate.
    1) big boot should probably be more damage
    2) I don't think a generic kick to the head should end a match
    3) Kick to the head is occasionally a move counter whereas big boot is not. So if you have Kevin Nash vs Kurt Angle and you've set "kick to the head -> big boot" in the Special Move Wizard, Nash could counter the Anklelock with a big boot as far as TNM sees is.
    4) A big boot sometimes hits them in the chest not the head.

    Any thoughts on "crossbody block" vs "high crossbody block"?  I thought the former was a crossbody of the non-flying variety and a the latter was a crossbody used as a counter, but it seems inconsistently used in TNM.
    UnrightPosted on 08/26/07 at 18:51:35

    On 08/26/07 at 17:56:44, LillaThrilla wrote:Anyone have thoughts on the kick to the head and big boot being seperate moves debate?
    Isn't a big boot where the attacker is stationary and the opponent is running towards them (opponent running checked) and a kick to the head is when both wrestlers are stationary?

    1) big boot should probably be more damage
    Yeah, historically I agree. Big boots from big men are sold like collisions with Mack Trucks. But logically that never made much sense to me.

    2) I don't think a generic kick to the head should end a match
    There's a few exceptions. Tajiri uses a kick to the head as a finisher and people like Low-Ki (Senshi) have pretty devastating kicks.  But as a general rule, I'll agree with you again.

    3) Kick to the head is occasionally a move counter whereas big boot is not.  So if you have Kevin Nash vs Kurt Angle and you've set "kick to the head -> big boot" in the Special Move Wizard, Nash could counter the Anklelock with a big boot as far as TNM sees is.
    There's a solid reason for the two moves to be separate. A big boot just isn't a reasonable counter to an Anklelock. I would be stuck picturing Angle headbutting Nash's boot.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/26/07 at 21:57:36

    Does split legged moonsault need to be seperate from a ropeflip moonsault?  RVD's is in the corner but the only different in TNM between ropeflip and split legged would be damage...maybe...  And I noticed sometimes a ropeflip moonsault gets called a split legged moonsault despite not being in the turnbuckle area...

    On 08/26/07 at 18:51:35, Unright wrote:There's a few exceptions. Tajiri uses a kick to the head as a finisher and people like Low-Ki (Senshi) have pretty devastating kicks. But as a general rule, I'll agree with you again.
    I thought he used a roundhouse kick?  Or did he change finishing kicks?
    CrplsPosted on 08/26/07 at 22:22:41

    Isn't a big boot where the attacker is stationary and the opponent is running towards them (opponent running checked) and a kick to the head is when both wrestlers are stationary?
    They always called Hogan's leg drop setup a "big boot" and he was stationary with the guy running. I think it's a generic term for a big dude kicking someone in the head with a raised straight leg.

    I thought he used a roundhouse kick?  Or did he change finishing kicks?
    Same move. It's a roundhouse kick... to the head. Minoru does it as a "right kick" as well.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/27/07 at 03:22:03

    On 08/26/07 at 22:22:41, Crpls wrote:They always called Hogan's leg drop setup a "big boot" and he was stationary with the guy running. I think it's a generic term for a big dude kicking someone in the head with a raised straight leg.
    Yeah, that's Hogan's thing.  Nash did it too.  Generic big guys.  Hell, I think a couple people in the 80s might've even used it as a finisher.

    On 08/26/07 at 22:22:41, Crpls wrote:Same move. It's a roundhouse kick... to the head. Minoru does it as a "right kick" as well.
    Ok.  I would file "roundhouse kick to the head" under "roundhouse kick" not "kick to the head".  I think some export makers might've done it the other way...
    LillaThrillaPosted on 08/27/07 at 04:12:52

    What's the difference (if any) between a swinging punch and a roundhouse punch?
    CrplsPosted on 08/27/07 at 07:10:26

    "swinging punch" is Vader/Morishima's clubbing forearms (Vader Hammer.)

    More of a forearm than a punch, but I'm pretty certain that was the intention in TNM.
    LillaThrillaPosted on 09/01/07 at 20:14:13

    Is there any reason for Mexican armdrag and armdrag to be seperate moves?

    The only differences between them I seen in my TNM is that Mexican armdrag has over twice the damage of a regular armdrag... ???

    How is Jody Fleisch's Phoenix 720 DDT different from a springboard leaping swinging DDT?
    BULLYPosted on 09/02/07 at 00:02:35

    A Mexican armdrag is different somehow, but I don't remember for sure. It might be a backspin armdrag...

    The only difference between those two is that Fleisch slingshots himself onto the rope like he's going for a moonsault (back to the opponent) and spinning to the front when he springboards.
    Mr. Ken KennedyPosted on 09/02/07 at 00:17:22

    On 09/02/07 at 00:02:35, BULLY wrote:A Mexican armdrag is different somehow, but I don't remember for sure. It might be a backspin armdrag...

    The only difference between those two is that Fleisch slingshots himself onto the rope like he's going for a moonsault (back to the opponent) and spinning to the front when he springboards.
    What about the difference between an armdrag takedown and a Japanese armdrag takedown?
    LillaThrillaPosted on 09/02/07 at 03:03:39

    On 09/02/07 at 00:17:22, Mr. Ken Kennedy wrote:

    What about the difference between an armdrag takedown and a Japanese armdrag takedown?
    Japanese armdrag is an overhead armdrag.
    The TNM Members ChampPosted on 09/03/07 at 04:33:21

    So how do we apply these changes and uniformity to our TNM databases? Furthermore, what are the effects, if any of importing exports from the old TNM 6.2 export website? I remember looking at some of those exports and the move lists weren't so great. This is more a question of how the move updates you made affect the old school wrestler exports.