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Wrestlers improving

rey619Posted on 08/07/06 at 12:09:22

Have anyone come up with some kind of system / rules that allow wrestlers to improve their stats?

I have pondered upon it for quite some time, and I know Carlzilla had some simple rules for improving his dojo wrestlers, but what about wrestlers who've finished their training? I just had Shelly Martinez (work rate 68) defeat Lacey in my OVW developmental circuit, earning a ***1/2 rating in the effort. This is a really good score for someone with as low a work rate.

Maybe something along the lines of current work rate compared to match rating. In other words, Shelly Martinez may improve with a *** match, while someone with a 95 work rate need a ***** or something?

Just tossing out ideas here..
PulsarPosted on 08/07/06 at 15:16:45

Rey, using your idea, that brings up a fairly simple formula. Use Workrate/20 = Number of stars needed to improve.

Example: Shelly Martinez at a 60.
60/20= 3 star match needed to improve.

Now, when you get a fraction, just round up to the next .25. Example: Pulsar has a workrate of 96.

96/20 = 4.8. Pulsar needs a 5 star match to improve further.

As far as improvement. To keep it in check, maybe is should be a simple formula like 6 - number of star to improve.

Example. Shelly needs 3 stars to improve. She gets her 3 star match. 6-3= 3. She gets 3 workrate points. Or you can do 1 + (number of stars needed - number of stars received). Example. Shelly work a 4 star match, she only need 3 to improve. Shelly gets + 2 to her workrate. Handle fractions your own way.

Just an idea, as I never change them.
equinox10Posted on 08/07/06 at 16:25:46

On 08/07/06 at 15:16:45, Pulsar wrote:Rey, using your idea, that brings up a fairly simple formula. Use Workrate/20 = Number of stars needed to improve.

Example: Shelly Martinez at a 60.
60/20= 3 star match needed to improve.

Now, when you get a fraction, just round up to the next .25. Example: Pulsar has a workrate of 96.

96/20 = 4.8. Pulsar needs a 5 star match to improve further.

As far as improvement. To keep it in check, maybe is should be a simple formula like 6 - number of star to improve.

Example. Shelly needs 3 stars to improve. She gets her 3 star match. 6-3= 3. She gets 3 workrate points. Or you can do 1 + (number of stars needed - number of stars received). Example. Shelly work a 4 star match, she only need 3 to improve. Shelly gets + 2 to her workrate. Handle fractions your own way.

Just an idea, as I never change them.
I think this is actually a really good system.  I will probably adopt it in my circuits (if I don't get lazy  :))
rey619Posted on 08/07/06 at 17:46:17

I agree, this is a good idea, and will probably be incorporated into my circuits soon.

Can we do the same with Stamina and Charisma? I reckon Stamina can improve if you're involved in long matches, but in booked circuits, you determine length yourself, so there's actually no point in using a system for it. And Charisma? That's tough... maybe if somone with a low stat acquires a high heat rating? And the other way around... dunno..
equinox10Posted on 08/07/06 at 18:25:59

On 08/07/06 at 17:46:17, rey619 wrote:I agree, this is a good idea, and will probably be incorporated into my circuits soon.

Can we do the same with Stamina and Charisma? I reckon Stamina can improve if you're involved in long matches, but in booked circuits, you determine length yourself, so there's actually no point in using a system for it. And Charisma? That's tough... maybe if somone with a low stat acquires a high heat rating? And the other way around... dunno..
Does stamina have any bearing on how many stars a match receives?  If you book a wrestler with poor stamina in a long match, will this effect the match's rating?  Because if so, then stamina improvements may have a place even in booked circuits...




PulsarPosted on 08/09/06 at 03:34:34

I'm pleased that this is considered. If you need anymore random formulas..shoot me a message.

As far as stamina....I would guess that stamina would increase with age up to a certain point, and then reside.

Let's say the average wrestler peaks at 29. A younger wrestlers stamina may not be as high as a 29 year old due to lack of conditioning and maturity, especilly in relation to training. From 30 on, the magical number age will take effect. The only problem is, the number of exceptions to the rules. Stamina would be hard to change.

Charisma...well, that shouldn't change. Mainly because either you have it, or you don't. You can't really improve in how charasmatic you are. Charimsma is just TOO natural.
equinox10Posted on 08/09/06 at 05:22:40

I agree that coming up with a formula for improving charisma is near impossible, but I disagree that charisma is something you have or don't have.

Charisma can develop over time and experience.  Take a look at Bryan Danielson.  Watch his early stuff in ROH and he's a great worker, but deadly boring.  Watch him now and he's drawing some extreme heel heat.  I'd say his charisma improved (or maybe it was just "untapped" earlier on...)

Still, seems nearly impossible to reliably quantify this improvement.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/11/06 at 14:04:07

On 08/09/06 at 05:22:40, equinox10 wrote:I agree that coming up with a formula for improving charisma is near impossible, but I disagree that charisma is something you have or don't have.

Charisma can develop over time and experience. Take a look at Bryan Danielson. Watch his early stuff in ROH and he's a great worker, but deadly boring. Watch him now and he's drawing some extreme heel heat. I'd say his charisma improved (or maybe it was just "untapped" earlier on...)

Still, seems nearly impossible to reliably quantify this improvement.
Very good example.  Back in 2002 when ROH was just starting, Danielson was a strong worker (90ish workrate) with a ton of stamina (100), but all the charisma of a parsnip (60ish at best).

Since then, he has learned how to work the crowd admirably while further refining his style to the point where his matches are a real treat to watch.  At the same time, while he's visibly more comfortable going back and forth with the crowd and heeling it up, he does not and likely never will have the kind of natural superstar charisma that only a few ever attain.  At the moment, I'd stat him at... say... 100-100-85.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
equinox10Posted on 08/11/06 at 20:17:23

I think the charisma needed to reach the 95 - 100 range in the U.S. comes from having a certain "look" that guys either have or they don't.  Danielson, even with his old dwarf beard, is just average looking.  He's not a muscle bound freak with really good looks who is going to be a top babyface, nor is he a particularly threatening-looking heel.  Given what he is (a fairly small guy with a good if unspectacular physique) I think he has really developed into a highly charismatic performer.
Glum76Posted on 08/13/06 at 18:28:58

While I agree that charisma shouldn't increase a whole lot in any "improvement" model, I think one way to be realistic about it is to incorporate promo time (number of interviews), gimmick changes, and face/heel turns into the improvement system.

If a good gimmick catches on, a wrestler can maximize his charisma. Similarly, a heel/face turn can make someone "hot" for at least a while. Most importantly, I think the number of interviews plays a role here. When a wrestler cuts a promo, it gives the fans an opportunity to identify with them, and can improve the fan reaction to their matches. So given all of these thoughts, I'd use a formula like this:

Heel / Face Turn: +5 charisma points. (+0 for ensuing face / heel turns)

Interviews: +0.5 for each of the first ten interviews a wrestler gives in a circuit.

New gimmick: +5% of base charisma value

Thoughts?
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/13/06 at 18:43:53

Glum, this sounds very similar to what I am experimenting with in the NWA-SC circuit.  I am giving bonus points for certain stats based on appearances (wrestling and non-wrestling) on my weekly television program.  This is seeming to work rather well so far since my TV is every 8th card.  Plus it forces me to use everyone on TV using roughly a 3 week cycle with the exception of the World Champ who makes a weekly appearance (and thusly earns a weekly bonus [every 8th card] whereas everyone else gets their bonus roughly every third week [every 24th card]).
Glum76Posted on 08/13/06 at 18:50:34

Rick - Good point about TV time.  My formula is nothing without television, so house shows don't count.  I'll check the circuit boards for your formulas, assuming that you posted them when you started.  

I also edited my last post to make the gimmick change a 5% boost instead of 10%, as I realized my formula allowed for too high of a boost if all factors were met.

Rick GarrardPosted on 08/13/06 at 20:57:12

don't bother checking for my formulas, because as I said I am still tweaking them.  I haven't posted them yet.

Basically what I have been doing is the following:

TV appearance (match, run-in, interview) = push increase of 1
PPV/Mega card appearance = push increase of 1
PPV/Mega card win = push increase of 1
PPV/Mega card loss = push decrease of 1 (this cancels out appearance bonus of +1)
TV or PPV/Mega card match length longer than 20 minutes = stamina increase of 1
TV or PPV match rating greater than 3 stars = all participants workrate increase of 1
TV or PPV match rating greater than 4 stars = all participants workrate increase of 2
ANY match rating of 5 = all participants workrate increase of 3
TV or PPV match rating of DUD or negative = workrate decrease of 1
TV or PPV match rating of negative five = workrate decrease of 3

TV interview hyping up coming match = charisma increase of 1
Losing match that is promoted TV interview (match can be on TV or at a house show) = charisma decrease of 1


This is just a rough outline so far.
John ProulxPosted on 08/13/06 at 22:38:55

All this talk about increasing abilities, but very little about decreasing them...

One way to decrease stamina is injuries -- for instance, a wrestler with an injury might lose a point of stamina for each card he misses, then have his stamina increase by 1 for each match over, say, 10 minutes after that until he's back up to his current maximum. A serious injury (like a broken neck or anything that results from the Scaffold Minus plugin ;)) might permanently decrease stamina by 5 or 10 points.

Workrate should also decrease with age, but perhaps to a lesser extent than stamina. As far as the earlier post, 29 might be too soon to start decreasing stamina. It's generally true that stamina reaches its height there, but then should plateau for a few years until 32-33 before declining. Workrate would likely do the same.

Charisma is much more volatile. Heel and face turns might actually decrease charisma rather than increase it, depending on how it's booked. Losing streaks could also decrease charisma.

Lots of good ideas here, though, if you're into micromanaging  ;D.
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/13/06 at 23:32:07

John, that's why in my post there is roughly one decrease for every one increase, otherwise you will eventually end up with every guy on your roster with straight 100's
91Posted on 08/13/06 at 23:32:56

The one problem with the system, Rick, is you're potentially pegging almost everyone to either an extreme high or an extreme low.

Let's say, for example, you put an average worker in there with a particularly bad worker. They churn out a DUD and your average guy loses a point of workrate, thus increasing the chances of further DUDs and some negative star matches until it gets to the point where their workrate is so low that all they have is negative star matches and there is zero possibility for improvement.

Also I'm a bit dubious about the charisma bit - whilst people like, say, John Cena show more charisma now than when they started, it's not really something you can teach someone. Let's say someone like Ken Shamrock starts on a charisma rating of 50 and over a span of 4 years, he gets fifty matches that have some hype. Because Shamrocks export is badass, he wins the lot, and now he has a charisma rating of 100. I'm not saying Ken Shamrock was a guy devoid of emotion as he was far from awful in that department in his day (compare him to Dan Severn for example) but for him to be considered as entertaining as The Rock on the mic? Uhhh, no.

Also there doesn't seem to be a way to reduce anybodies push (unless they wrestle more than once on a PPV, which would be rare I would imagine). Eventually, if you kept going for long enough, you'd have everyone on a push of 100.

The best possible system would be to establish an average (I'd say an average would be based around someone who constantly churns out * matches, give or take a few quarters) and make it easier for someone around that average to increase but harder the higher they get, whilst also using the same principles to enable people to decrease their stats too.
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/13/06 at 23:38:30

hence why I shouldn't have posted this in the first place. it is NOT a finalized version at all.

you should note that I don't have my points deductions for title match losses or feud blowoffs listed either. And they are rather severe in comparison to the single point adjustments. Also there is a couple bonuses for length of championship run as well. And as I posted previously... this is for a circuit that is running 8 cards a week, with adjustments coming after the 8th card. So in most people's case this would be an adjustment made every other month, since most folks run one card a week.

And as always with just about any thing I have published all points adjustments are at the users discretion.  Just because it says increase or decrease, doesn't mean you have to hold steadfast to said points.
John ProulxPosted on 08/13/06 at 23:46:39

On 08/13/06 at 23:32:07, Rick Garrard wrote:John, that's why in my post there is roughly one decrease for every one increase, otherwise you will eventually end up with every guy on your roster with straight 100's
Sure. Note I said "very little" and not "no" discussion :) . I was responding to the thread as a whole. I also think it's good that you posted it, since if nothing else we can help you tweak it. For instance, perhaps someone who loses a squash (i.e., a match less than, say, 2-3 minutes in length) could suffer a decrease in push and/or charisma.

Overall, an interesting concept.
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/13/06 at 23:49:31

You do have to consider that since my weekly TV consists of jobber matches and one main event, that it doesn't really matter that the jobber gets an increase or decrease (unless they pull off a win out of no where). And since I've only run one mega card (prior to fixing a bunch of "broken" old school exports) I haven't had to make any mega show adjustments recently.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that there were originally adjustments for heat rating as well, but this was a problem that was fixed by fixing broken exports (i.e. exports that were not originally created for TNM7SE).
rey619Posted on 08/19/06 at 14:18:57

OK, if we go back to Pulsar's idea of Workrate/20 etc... can workers actually become worse? Or should it just be based on age, maybe injuries as well? I mean.. if Chris Benoit suddenly, for some reason, goes five matches in a row with * matches... should his workrate go down as a result?

Or just with age? Your thoughts?
rey619Posted on 08/19/06 at 14:46:48

I was thinking.. maybe more experienced wrestlers need more than 1 match to improve? While younger, more inexperienced wrestlers improve quicker? Like, if we continue with Pulsar's formula, you need more matches the longer you've been in the business.

0-3 years: 1 match
4-8 years: 3 matches
9-15 years: 5 matches
16 + years: 7 matches

Going through the matches in my WWC circuit, both Johnny Nitro and Elijah Burke has scored 1 match at or above their limit. Since have all been in the industry for 3 or less years, they win 4 points of workrate. Colt Cabana has been wrestling for almost 7 years, and even though he has 2 matches over par, he still needs a third. Burchill has one, lacks two.

Dragon Kid has almost been in the business for 9 years (but not quite), so he only needs 3 matches (which he has). Trinity and Rob Van Dam has 1 match each, but has wrestled for quite some time, and still has some way to go.

How's this method?

For stamina, I'll use the previously mentioned method. You lose temporarily 1 stamina point for every month you're injured, but you regain them at a rate of 1 point every month thereafter. In addition, for every month you were injured, there's a cumulative 5 per cent chance that you lose permanent stamina points. You will probably need dice or a dice bot for this. For instance, Ken Kennedy was injured for 2 months in my circuit. It's a 10 per cent chance that he loses some of the stamina permanent. I roll a 12, no loss, but he starts out with 2 points less stamina when he returns, and it takes 2 months before he is back at the same level. Now, let's take an extreme example.. let's say someone is injured for 14 months. That's an 70 per cent chance. I roll 64, 21, 23, 14 and then 88. He loses 4 points of stamina. This could actually be a way to retire someone, as I think I've heard rumors of 20+ cards injuries.