FORUM HOME > TNM > Discussion
My small quibbles... Give feedback!

RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 05:06:36

Playing around with TNM SE, I've come to a conclusion... The program lacks a number of things that in my mind hamper it quite a bit.

I just don't get the dyanmic feeling of it all like I do when I'm watching wrestling. It's not from the lack of "graphics", which I've got no problem with... It's just that there's such a huge gap between the different wrestlers in the game. Oi, let me actually try to explain this.

There's no real back and forth. It's there, but not how it is in real wrestling. No "monster heel" dominating the babyface for five minutes straight (Like Hansen or Vader do) and then the babyface ducking a closeline and delivering a flying forearm that knocks both of the guys down. Then they get up. That builds drama, it shows character... I've got Shawn Micheals fighting Andre the giant in TNM and they're basically just kicking the crap out of each other until one or the other gets lucky enough with one move or another.

So why no both guys floored, slowly rising to the ten count? Why no babyface come backs?

Oh, and this has always bothered me too... The reversals and avoiding of some moves. How in gods name can you duck out of the way from a shoulderblock? Closelines, big boots, sure.  But a shoulderblock? I don't think I've ever seen that done in wrestling, it'd look asinine in the utmost. I groan everytime it happens in a TNM match, sadly.

So, what say you? Do you agree? Disagree? Am I merely looking at things in the wrong manner? Discuss with me!
RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 05:18:59

And another thing, there's literally next to no determining factor that keeps jobbers and midcarders from routinely beating wrestlers of epic proportions. I don't have any problem with Jeff Hardy beating Bret Hart at the 20 minute mark with a crucifix at the end of a huge string of reversals, but that should be the expection, not the rule.

It should be a genuine suprise, like it was when the 123 Kid beat Ramon. Out of the blue. That would capture the dynamic of wrestling. It's just disapointing that when I book cards, things usually turn out completely adverse to how they should from the get go. I know I can book the winners, but that's really not my thing.

I mean, I do a hardcore title tournenmant, and WING Kanemura destroys Bruiser Brody & Atushi Onita? There should be a legendary check in attributes... That when checked would make losses by these wrestlers to jobbers and midcarders pretty rare. The Big Boss Man should NOT beat freakin' Stan Hansen 7 out of 10 times.
Perverted_IconPosted on 08/07/06 at 05:32:19

Set TNM to follow strict pushes.  Then, give big pushes to guys that you want to win and very low pushes to jobbers.
That should fix it.
RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 05:46:28

I've already done that. That just kind of reinforces the things that I said in my mind. In that even with strict pushes, some serious losers are beating guys who made a career out of being nearly unbeatable.
americamamushiPosted on 08/07/06 at 06:33:00

Dude... you must have some magical TNM or something because I honestly don't have that problem.  And I'm talking about all the times I've done unbooked circuits :)  If worse comes to worse then honestly... just book it yourself.  :P
phudjiePosted on 08/07/06 at 06:40:36

.....The whole push thing is something that has annoyed me for a long time as well until I virtually shut my TNM down to the outside world, overhauled the wrestler and moves database to my liking, and installed another TNM to which I put all my new exports in, I rework them there and then export them to my good TNM....
.....The gaps I use for my wrestlers are:
90 to 100 for main eventers/legends
70 to 80 for my upper carders
50 to 60 for my lower carders/cruiserweights
25 for jobbers with finishers ie. Bunkhouse Buck, Roadblock etc.
5 to 10 for guys that have no hope of winning ie. The Gambler and Mr. X

Even with that, upsets are still fairly regularily.


Keeping my database like this isn't too much work as I have maintained it over the years, this type of hing would seem like it would be major chore to someone like you just starting (restarting) again.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/07/06 at 06:53:30

I think the good thing about TNM is that it doesn't limit you.  Sure, you don't like Barry Horowitz upsetting Vader.  TNM has the work-arounds where you can make it so he never will win.  Some people like the pure who knows what's going to happen nature of it.  If you don't want a jobber to win, book him to lose.  And I know some will say, "Oh, but I want to run unbooked, but I don't want jobbers beating my stars."  Then only book the jobber matches.

As far as the other stuff goes with no face comebacks and such, it can happen.  Just maybe not to the extent you're wanting it to.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 08/07/06 at 07:15:41

I just run booked circuits now so I don't have to concern myself with push ratings. I'd rather be ignorant about it than concern myself with who should be rated higher for realistic unbooked results.
americamamushiPosted on 08/07/06 at 07:40:29

On 08/07/06 at 06:53:30, Snabbit888 wrote:And I know some will say, "Oh, but I want to run unbooked, but I don't want jobbers beating my stars." Then only book the jobber matches.
Exactly.  Just look at your match ups and say to yourself "Am I going to hate if Baryy Horowitz beat Vader here?" And if you will, then book Vader to win.  But if you're looking at a match where it could really go either way then leave it unbooked and see what happens.  Plus, if you don't like a finish to a match just keep hitting "R" til you get one you like.
RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 07:43:51

On 08/07/06 at 06:53:30, Snabbit888 wrote:I think the good thing about TNM is that it doesn't limit you.  Sure, you don't like Barry Horowitz upsetting Vader.  TNM has the work-arounds where you can make it so he never will win.  Some people like the pure who knows what's going to happen nature of it.  If you don't want a jobber to win, book him to lose.  And I know some will say, "Oh, but I want to run unbooked, but I don't want jobbers beating my stars."  Then only book the jobber matches.

As far as the other stuff goes with no face comebacks and such, it can happen.  Just maybe not to the extent you're wanting it to.
I shouldn't have to book anyone to do anything. It's a simulator, the entire thing is supposed to simulate "real" wrestling, correct?

I don't constantly want to have legends vs legends. There need to be squash matches every once in a while. I introduce someone who I think'll be big, put him against a few midcarders to prove him, but if I don't babysit him every step of the way he loses to people he's destroyed in real life.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/07/06 at 08:57:54

On 08/07/06 at 07:43:51, Russell wrote:


I shouldn't have to book anyone to do anything. It's a simulator, the entire thing is supposed to simulate "real" wrestling, correct?

I don't constantly want to have legends vs legends. There need to be squash matches every once in a while. I introduce someone who I think'll be big, put him against a few midcarders to prove him, but if I don't babysit him every step of the way he loses to people he's destroyed in real life.
Yes and no on the "real wrestling" thing.  Some people hate Triple H beyond belief and want to make him a jobber.  Sure, he's not a jobber in real life, but if TNM was programmed so superstars were always superstars and jobbers were always jobbers, it would take away all of your own personal creativity.  The way TNM is structured, you get to make the decisions.  Some people want Triple H like he is in real life dominating the circuit.  Others want him wrestling opening matches and getting beat by Shark Boy.  You can't cater only to one side or the other, but TNM is designed that you can ensure those squash matches happen or they don't - whichever you prefer.

The "anything can happen" is part of the appeal to TNM, IMO. And booking it so that Vader definitely beats Barry Horowitz takes what, 3 extra keystrokes? I'd hardly consider that babysitting. It's one of those things where at this point, I don't expect the match engine to be completely reworked, and I think you'd get more people complaining about the change that people like you that would enjoy the change. But it's easy to work around it. It's your choice whether you want to or not.
RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 09:44:19

I don't want to MAKE Vader win, so the number of keystrokes to insure he wins don't matter very much. I think that, after years and years of this thing being worked on, a wrestling simulator should have down pat the workings of, well, how wrestling works.

As for TNM being programmed one way or another, I think there should be clear cut definitions that make sure Shark Boy or whoever isn't always beating world champions from major federations. Obviously the push scale does next to nothing.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/07/06 at 09:49:16

But if you want it to be EXACTLY like how real wrestling is, try a different simulator.  The point is that not EVERYONE wants it the way you want it.  I understand your beefs, but it's not the way it is because Oliver didn't get it finished.  It's the way it is by design.  It's not meant to mimic real life perfectly, nor should it be, because not everyone wants it to be a perfect representation of real life.  I *LIKE* that Shark Boy can beat The Undertaker.  And I also like that if he beats The Undertaker and I don't want him to or don't think it's realistic, I can change it to do that too.
americamamushiPosted on 08/07/06 at 10:15:48

To be fair, the way your describing what you want is exactly what is going on in your TNM.  All this stuff about "Jobbers are jobbers and superstars are superstars" has a lot to do with the preconceived notions based around each wrestler in question.  If you want a "real wrestling simulator" thats exactly what you're getting.  Two guys in the ring wrestling, you can tilt the scales with push ratings, which will go into affecting such things as possible damage capacities for each move in their moveset but at the end of the day it's still considered by TNM to be a legit contest between two competitors.  What it sounds like you want is TNM to spoon feed you predictable results and basically give you exactly what you see on TV every week.  Which is fine.  You want what you want, but do get what you truly want with TNM at least everyone in a while you might have to hit the ol' "R" key or book a winner, which, like Snabbit said, is all of 3 extra keystrokes or something.  You also might want to set the winning streak to it's maximum.
CarlzillaPosted on 08/07/06 at 12:24:01

Ok gonna chime in here, "real" wrestling is booked, it's the way it is, wrestlers are told who wins and who looses. If you want it to acurately sim "real" wrestling then you have to tell the wrestlers who you want to win, no way around it.

Vader and Hansen got big reactions from the crowds, hence big pushes from the, get this, BOOKERS, you know, the guys who decide who wins and looses wrestling matches?  

Honestly, I understand what you are saying with the push system not being 100%. I just don't understand why you complain about it so much, there are solutions (are they even called that when the original complaint wasn't really a problem in the first place?) that everyone, and I mean everyone, have been using for years.

It sounds to me like you're buying into other peoples ideas of who should win and who should loose a little too much. TNM is a "fantasy wrestling sim", not an "as close to the real world as possible wrestling sim"...anyway, that's all.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/07/06 at 15:46:22

There's no such thing as "people that should win" in the wrestling world. It's not like, say baseball, where everything is quantified with statistics where you can make educated guesses about which way things are going to turn. This is professional wrestling. It's fake. Vader isn't really Vader in TNM. He's just a word with some numbers attached to it. It's impossible to think that TNM can have the same mind set as Vince McMahon. You can't have a realistic simulation of something that isn't real in the first place.
equinox10Posted on 08/07/06 at 16:20:15

On 08/07/06 at 05:06:36, Russell wrote:

There's no real back and forth. It's there, but not how it is in real wrestling. No "monster heel" dominating the babyface for five minutes straight (Like Hansen or Vader do) and then the babyface ducking a closeline and delivering a flying forearm that knocks both of the guys down. Then they get up. That builds drama, it shows character... I've got Shawn Micheals fighting Andre the giant in TNM and they're basically just kicking the crap out of each other until one or the other gets lucky enough with one move or another.

So why no both guys floored, slowly rising to the ten count? Why no babyface come backs?
I admit that I too have often felt that TNM doesn't always do the best job of simulating the flow of an actual wrestling match.  Although I have seen great matches on TNM, with constant near falls and dramatic kickouts and such, alot of the match (especially the early stages) is often not laid out in a "traditional" manner.

That being said, nothing is perfect.  This just requires you to use your imagination a little more.  

On a sidenote, I always felt a psychology plugin (or the addition of more psychology in the game engine) would be a fantastic addition.  This was actually discussed once on the TNM mailing list years ago.  Basically, have certain moves occur earlier on the match (perhaps in a feeling out period) and have the bigger, high impact moves occur later on when the finish is approaching.  I imagine you could also have the match follow a basic formula, such as when a dominant heel destroys a face for much of the match and then the face mounts a dramatic comeback. However, just writing this out makes me realize how hard and time consuming this would be to program, and I'm sure alot of people would still be unhappy with it.  


Oh, and this has always bothered me too... The reversals and avoiding of some moves. How in gods name can you duck out of the way from a shoulderblock? Closelines, big boots, sure. But a shoulderblock? I don't think I've ever seen that done in wrestling, it'd look asinine in the utmost. I groan everytime it happens in a TNM match, sadly.
This is very nit-picky as this does not happen very often, IMO.  It's still a game and expecting 100% perfection is too much, especially when you are referring to one move in a database that features thousands.

RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 17:38:54

On 08/07/06 at 15:46:22, JoshEngleman wrote:There's no such thing as "people that should win" in the wrestling world. It's not like, say baseball, where everything is quantified with statistics where you can make educated guesses about which way things are going to turn. This is professional wrestling. It's fake. Vader isn't really Vader in TNM. He's just a word with some numbers attached to it. It's impossible to think that TNM can have the same mind set as Vince McMahon. You can't have a realistic simulation of something that isn't real in the first place.
Actually, there are people who "should" win. There are specific names for it in the wrestling world, actually. Jobbers don't beat high end guys, especially the extremely high end guys. Unless you want to give me an example of an absolute jobber beating Antonio Inoki, my point stands. 123 Kid upsets Ramon, Mysterio upsets the Big Show... But Barry Horowitz over the Andre the Giant or some similar insanity? Shouldn't happen, peroid.
RussellPosted on 08/07/06 at 17:41:11

On 08/07/06 at 10:15:48, americamamushi wrote:To be fair, the way your describing what you want is exactly what is going on in your TNM.  All this stuff about "Jobbers are jobbers and superstars are superstars" has a lot to do with the preconceived notions based around each wrestler in question.  If you want a "real wrestling simulator" thats exactly what you're getting.  Two guys in the ring wrestling, you can tilt the scales with push ratings, which will go into affecting such things as possible damage capacities for each move in their moveset but at the end of the day it's still considered by TNM to be a legit contest between two competitors.  What it sounds like you want is TNM to spoon feed you predictable results and basically give you exactly what you see on TV every week.  Which is fine.  You want what you want, but do get what you truly want with TNM at least everyone in a while you might have to hit the ol' "R" key or book a winner, which, like Snabbit said, is all of 3 extra keystrokes or something.  You also might want to set the winning streak to it's maximum.
I wouldn't know what's on television, considering I don't watch it, peroid. Most everything I watch is 10-20 year old wrestling.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bitch and moan about my notions of shortcomings... I wanted to incite discussion more than anything. I like and have liked the program enough to flat out buy it and play with it for years on end.
rey619Posted on 08/07/06 at 17:56:44

You can easily construct jobbers. Simply don't give them finishers. This means they are viewed as jobbers, and won't every win a match.

The back-and-forth thing.. yes.. it would have been awesome, I'll admit. Another thing is the way big powermoves are used early on. I don't know how difficult it would be to flag certain moves to only be used in the final 20% of the match, but it'll certainly be time consuming.

As someone mentioned, Vader is really only 5 letters with a bunch of stats and moves attached to it. A move inflicts X number of injury points to the opponent, so if someone has a great number of "big" moves in his repertoar, he is more likely to win his match. Strap someone with a lot of submission moves, and he's quite likely to have a decent win-loss record. When the TNMWA was running, I suspect several people to speculate in having an optimal moveset. Add to this the Figure-Four bug that wreaked havoc in earlier versions, where someone who was trapped in the move would almost always be pinned in it.

Since TNM is a simulation with stats and numbers, there will always be ways to min/max wrestlers. The various exports don't always come from the same people as well, it's not like everything is balanced. That is why I, after running unbooked since first trying it, started running booked feds earlier this year.
equinox10Posted on 08/07/06 at 18:19:31

On 08/07/06 at 17:38:54, Russell wrote:


Actually, there are people who "should" win. There are specific names for it in the wrestling world, actually. Jobbers don't beat high end guys, especially the extremely high end guys. Unless you want to give me an example of an absolute jobber beating Antonio Inoki, my point stands. 123 Kid upsets Ramon, Mysterio upsets the Big Show... But Barry Horowitz over the Andre the Giant or some similar insanity? Shouldn't happen, peroid.
But what if there are people out there who do want Barry Horowitz to beat Andre The Giant?  For example, maybe some people want to sharpen their booking skills and come up with interesting angles surrounding a strange victory that TNM has dictated (like Barry over Andre).  

And like other people have said, if you don't like even the possibility of Horowitz going over, you can just book it so that it never happens....

I think the way it is now is flexible enough to keep everyone happy, as far as winning and losing is concerned.
91Posted on 08/07/06 at 19:22:32

On 08/07/06 at 17:38:54, Russell wrote:
But Barry Horowitz over the Andre the Giant or some similar insanity? Shouldn't happen, peroid.
Who are you to doubt Barry Horowitz?
americamamushiPosted on 08/07/06 at 19:29:34

On 08/07/06 at 19:22:32, 91 wrote:

Who are you to doubt Barry Horowitz?
lmao!

I bow to you sir :)
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/07/06 at 19:39:22

On 08/07/06 at 17:38:54, Russell wrote:


Actually, there are people who "should" win. There are specific names for it in the wrestling world, actually. Jobbers don't beat high end guys, especially the extremely high end guys. Unless you want to give me an example of an absolute jobber beating Antonio Inoki, my point stands. 123 Kid upsets Ramon, Mysterio upsets the Big Show... But Barry Horowitz over the Andre the Giant or some similar insanity? Shouldn't happen, peroid.
The reason there are people that "should" win is because you have the perception that they should. People (aka Vince McMahon) have told you who should be good and who shouldn't. Big Show goes out and wins matches, therefore he is a winner. TNM is doing the same thing. TNM is Vince McMahon. It spits out who it wants to win in that given match. If your ratings are set in a realistic way to each specific wrestler, then the fluke pins that you speak of will be just that. Just because Barry Horowitz pins Vader in a match doesn't mean he is going to pin him every time. Remember that one match is a small sample size.
91Posted on 08/07/06 at 21:15:44

On 08/07/06 at 19:29:34, americamamushi wrote:

lmao!

I bow to you sir :)
'Who are you to doubt' may be the greatest catchphrase in the history of TNM.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/07/06 at 21:33:08

On 08/07/06 at 21:15:44, 91 wrote:

'Who are you to doubt' may be the greatest catchphrase in the history of TNM.
Even better than, "Those are some good titles?"
91Posted on 08/07/06 at 21:38:44

I remember that one but I don't recall how it came about. Someone remind me...
Snabbit888Posted on 08/07/06 at 21:40:09

On 08/07/06 at 21:38:44, 91 wrote:I remember that one but I don't recall how it came about. Someone remind me...
It was SuperstarJimiC during one of his numerous circuit shills.  He did a press conference post where the titles in the circuit were listed off, and one of the announcers said, "Those are some good titles!"  You can't top that in my eyes.
americamamushiPosted on 08/07/06 at 21:46:17

But seriously... who are we to doubt those good titles?

TWO-FER!~
91Posted on 08/07/06 at 21:49:42

If I hadn't stopped to put the bins out, I would have beaten you to that. >:(
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/08/06 at 01:43:39

91 is livin' the American Dream.  ;)

TNM's biggest moveset problem is some moves have way too much damage attributed to them in comparison to others.  That being said, the problem with wrestler exports is as was said earlier, in that not all the exports were made by the same person/group of persons, thusly causing an unbalanced nature when it comes to push and workrate values.  I've tweaked my entire database because of this, as many others have as well.  Basically some under the hood work is necessary, especially if you are running a circuit with the more "cartoony" characters of the WWF 80s.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 02:21:09

I think we need to try and combine our efforts and try and make some wrestler packs that are balanced. There are enough active people on the board that use the program regularly enough that we can definately get something uniform across the board. A little work could go a long way for something like this.

Also, I don't know how many people use it, but I think we should work on using the Special Move Wizard to help with some exports.
triad4evrPosted on 08/08/06 at 03:14:16

I'm just gonna chime in here for a sec, too... I think part of the "problem" with TNM is _not_ that it's a "fantasy wrestling sim" as opposed to a "real wrestling sim"- actually, I think it's both. You want it to be a fantasy wrestling sim where superstars are superstars and jobbers are jobbers? Then set it to Strict Pushes on (and maybe a couple of other finisher flags and such) and make sure your superstars have the high-end pushes and your jobbers have low ones- there you go, Barry Horrowitz _won't_ beat The Great Khali (no matter how terrible Khali is from a "real" perspective, if he has a push of 85 to Barry's 20, Barry will never win). Fantasy Wrestling Sim- gives predictable results.

On the other hand, if you think the Great Khali is the worst thing since the Ultimate Warrior and that Triple-H is a glorified midcarder, leave Strict Push off, then it's all about move selection. Barry Horrowitz may just pwn The Great Khali because in "real life" we all know that The Great Khali is a stiff. Same with Triple-H. Now it's more like a "real" wrestling simulator- guys with good "technical" moves will trounce glorified bodybuilders and freaks of nature. Shark Boy could just win the World Title!

So, there you go. You want TNM to work a certain way, then tweak the Push scores, turn off Strict Pushes, etc. You don't want somebody ducking a shoulder-block? Edit the move. Remove Duck-Down Move from the list of counters.

So that's really the thing. It's not that TNM isn't inclusive enough, it's that TNM is "too" inclusive.

I do agree somewhat, though, with the sentiment that there should be more "tweakable" match "formulas" that we could actually edit that would control how often moves of different levels are delivered by the participants. But that's a different issue, though not outside the realm of possibility.

Anyway, my two cents... Spend em wisely.
rey619Posted on 08/08/06 at 11:10:46

On 08/08/06 at 02:21:09, JoshEngleman wrote:Also, I don't know how many people use it, but I think we should work on using the Special Move Wizard to help with some exports.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't create exports with moves in the Special Move Wizard.

And creating balanced export packs is a really really good idea. There are so many stupid moves that win matches now and then that I tear my head out. A dropkick, bodyslam and a simple kick has taken out some of my wrestler. Not to speak of the dreaded standing wristlock.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 15:00:09

On 08/08/06 at 11:10:46, rey619 wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, you can't create exports with moves in the Special Move Wizard.

And creating balanced export packs is a really really good idea. There are so many stupid moves that win matches now and then that I tear my head out. A dropkick, bodyslam and a simple kick has taken out some of my wrestler. Not to speak of the dreaded standing wristlock.
You are absolutely right. For some reason I was combining the Special Move Wizard with the Commentary Wizard. I definately think we need to see if it is possible to get the export feature added to the SMW. But that is just a novelty, so it really isn't a big deal.

Trying to make balanced exports seems like a pretty easy task once we get everything weeded out. I also hate seeing people passing out in standing wristlocks or Edge beating Cena with a kick to the midsection. It just isn't going to happen like that, and we need to change it.
rey619Posted on 08/08/06 at 15:40:31

I'm definetely interested in helping out if more people are interested in that.

So basically, what you're suggesting is that we (or someone), creates a database with X numbers of wrestlers (probably borrowed from King_of_old School), tweak the moves so that we don't have someone passing out from wristlocks, tweak the damage, maybe remove redundant moves (powerbomb, power bomb anyone?)

What about the wrestlers themselves? It's gonna take a while if, let's say, 5 of us are going to argue what Dice Domino's stamina is?

And how many wrestlers should be included? And is this something that many will find useful? I don't know if I want to do it if it's only you and me who will have a use for it.
equinox10Posted on 08/08/06 at 16:38:48

I'm not sure I have the time to help right now, but editing the move set so that insignificant moves do not lead to pinfalls or submissions sounds like a great idea to me.

All I can think of is when I was running this circuit a couple of months back.  I built to a Chris Benoit vs. Samoa Joe match.  Because I couldn't decide who I wanted to book to win, I decided to have it unbooked, but I set the time and allowed the match to end with any move.  It ended with a kick to the midsection (although it garnered 4 and 1/2 stars). That really pissed me off.

JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 16:52:38

On 08/08/06 at 15:40:31, rey619 wrote:I'm definetely interested in helping out if more people are interested in that.

So basically, what you're suggesting is that we (or someone), creates a database with X numbers of wrestlers (probably borrowed from King_of_old School), tweak the moves so that we don't have someone passing out from wristlocks, tweak the damage, maybe remove redundant moves (powerbomb, power bomb anyone?)

What about the wrestlers themselves? It's gonna take a while if, let's say, 5 of us are going to argue what Dice Domino's stamina is?

And how many wrestlers should be included? And is this something that many will find useful? I don't know if I want to do it if it's only you and me who will have a use for it.
My thinking is that it shouldn't take much arguing at all. The group of people that decide to do this just submit what they believe to be the ratings. All we have to do is average them out. I think we should start off big, with the groups of wrestlers people use the most, with the WWE roster, then TNA, then the big name indy guys.

I think that it is something that everyone will have use for. It could go a long way to just putting updated exports on the main page. Stuff that people can use right out of the gate with relative accuracy. It would be better to have a dated export of quality than a new export of poor quality.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 08/08/06 at 16:56:24

On 08/08/06 at 16:52:38, JoshEngleman wrote:

My thinking is that it shouldn't take much arguing at all. The group of people that decide to do this just submit what they believe to be the ratings. All we have to do is average them out. I think we should start off big, with the gorups of wrestlers people use the most, with the WWE roster, then TNA, then the big name indy guys.

I think that it is something that everyone will have use for. It could go a long way to just putting updated exports on the main page. Stuff that people can use right out of the gate with relative accuracy. It would be better to have a dated export of quality than a new export of poor quality.
That's a great idea. However, I've found that most good ideas on here never amount to much because once the effort is needed it becomes too much after awhile.

I definitely would love an official set of moves. There is too much redundancy in move names. Let me know how I can help with your export project.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 16:57:50

Well, it looks like I'm finally going to have to install TNM on my computer at work. Even if it is just for the next 3 weeks until I get back to school. And they thought I wasn't productive before...  ;)
91Posted on 08/08/06 at 18:34:27

On 08/08/06 at 01:43:39, Rick Garrard wrote:91 is livin' the American Dream. ;)
The most disturbing thing about that is my not being American.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 21:20:52

OK, here is a spreadsheet I put together with every wrestler from the most recent WWE pack at TNMUK. Each wrestler is listed with their workrate, push, stamina and charisma. There is also a small table of the average ratings at each catagory. Next to each rating is also a percentage. This percentage represents how much above or below the average said wrestler is at that catagory.

Example: Randy Orton's workrate is listed as 90. The percentage next to the 90 is 19%. That means that Randy Orton's workrate is 19% higher than the average workrate of everyone in the chart.

Basically we need to overhaul these ratings. BIG TIME. Victoria with a 100 workrate. Eugene having a higher workrate than HBK/Finlay/Flair/etc.

If you see anything that needs to drastically be changed, let me know. I'll keep updating as quickly as possible. I've also already started editing some moves so they can't end matches. I just keep running 62 man tournaments and checking the results. It's pretty quick. Any suggestions at all should be posted. We need all the help we can get.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=3FF44F615FC1BA4A
Snabbit888Posted on 08/08/06 at 22:00:36

For workrate I'd say Chavo and Terkay are definitely too high.  Chavo's a decent worker, but not a 92.  And Terkay is awful from what I've seen thus far, and a 90 is well above his workrate skill level.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/08/06 at 22:18:32

Also, I would say that Lashley is rated too low across the board.  With his stats it seems like he'd have a tremendously difficult time getting over which in real life isn't the case.  I think his charisma needs to be bumped up because he has that "I'm a bad ass" charisma going on.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/08/06 at 22:23:57

This is exactly the type of stuff we need. Getting people on the page that they should be on. My thought process is trying to set up the scale everything should be on. Setting the push isn't too vital to me, as I think that is something that everyone should set on their own. Pounding out the workrate, charisma and stamina on the other hand, is something that makes each wrestler unique. So many of the guys on that list are basically the same. Everything seems very general. A project like this could really diversify TNM.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 08/08/06 at 22:35:45

On 08/08/06 at 22:00:36, Snabbit888 wrote:For workrate I'd say Chavo and Terkay are definitely too high. Chavo's a decent worker, but not a 92. And Terkay is awful from what I've seen thus far, and a 90 is well above his workrate skill level.
That's funny because I'm impressed with Terkay and Burke. I think at the very least their charisma should be higher than the workrate (at least in Terkay's case because he has more of a brawler/MMA style).
Snabbit888Posted on 08/08/06 at 22:56:52

Terkay is a bad ass, but in the match I saw he looked extremely green and sloppy as far as pro-wrestling goes.  I didn't see Burke's match so I can't comment there.  Terkay just seems more like an MMA guy who beats people up instead of being fluid in the ring.
phudjiePosted on 08/08/06 at 23:52:11

Terkay was The Predator in Zero-1 right - did he use the mma gimmick there as well?  This may be a case Terkay and Burke being remolded as far as their in ring work goes to suit their MMA gimmick.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 00:04:34

Here's a question as I work on the workrates. Who's a better worker, Chavo or Edge. Right now Edge is higher in these exports. To me, it's definately Chavo. What does everyone else think?
Snabbit888Posted on 08/09/06 at 00:14:14

I would say they're both around the 80-85 range.  I just know 92 is definitely too high for Chavo because that will put on consistent **** matches and though Chavo is no slouch, I don't think he's putting on **** all the time.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 00:24:52

On 08/09/06 at 00:14:14, Snabbit888 wrote:I would say they're both around the 80-85 range.  I just know 92 is definitely too high for Chavo because that will put on consistent **** matches and though Chavo is no slouch, I don't think he's putting on **** all the time.
Yeah, I agree completely. What kind of range do you think should be on these guys? How low of a workrate do you think we should go with. Obviously some of the Divas are going to be really low, I'd say down in the 20s, but how low should the males go? Someone like Khali should be really low, in my opinion. I've already changed him to what I think he should be at in the spreadsheet, but what does everyone else think?
Snabbit888Posted on 08/09/06 at 00:27:43

It's fine line.  Because you'd want to say someone like Visecera is a shitty worker and go, "Okay, let's make him a 50" but in TNM, that'll be getting negative stars.  And Viscera's matches aren't Flair/Steamboat, but I've never looked at a Viscera match and went, "That wasn't watchable at all."

I'd say a big chunk of guys will fall within the 70-85 range if they're your average fair, guys like Masters, Carlito, Haas, etc.  People who can put on good matches, but don't do it night in and night out.  And save 85-100 to the real generals.  Someone like Shawn Michaels or Chris Benoit or Regal or Finlay.  Guys who just don't have a bad match that often.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 00:34:04

See this is where I am always arguing with people. To me, there's a reason the scale runs from -5 to +5 in the stars. In my opinion, average is 0. The middle. If you are going to just have a 0-5 star scale then that changes. But since TNM has the big range, I've always looked at it differently. I know that I'm probably the only one that sees in that way, but it's a little thing that bothers me. Not just in TNM, but in anything that has a scale.

Most people look at the 2.5/3.0 star matches as average. Perfectly acceptable. Which makes everything from there on down the line as below average.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm not going to nitpick too much about having say, Carlito an 83 and Charlie Haas an 82. That is just silly. But I am definately going to try and create some sort of tiered system to keep people in their respective groups.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/09/06 at 00:36:44

Though TNM has the big range, I usually go with the general consensus of rating systems, not just in wrestling but in just about anything.  A below average movie won't get -**, it will get 1.5 out of 5 stars.  I look at TNM the same way.  A * match had at least a small bit of merit.  If a match in TNM gets negative stars, it was beyond atrocious.  I personally like that system best, because more people will naturally be on it.
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/09/06 at 14:27:42

This is a great idea. I'm surprised nobody thought of doing it sooner. I'll check out the Excel spreadsheet later tonight.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 15:17:43

I have completely updated the spreadsheet, but it won't be upload until at least 630 eastern time. I am at work right now and like an idiot, I forgot to bring it with me. I'm also going through the moves now to try and limit the moves that end matches. This shouldn't be too hard. I just need to run tons of test matches and go through the results, which isn't hard at all when I can run it in the background. Based on just my changes, which are far from set in stone, I should have the updated WWE pack done tonight. After that, they will get revised by things that other people see and suggestions that other people make.

On a side note, before I forget, all thanks go to you Peter. If it wasn't for you, this wouldn't even be possible. You are THE source for all of this stuff and it wouldn't even be something we could do without you. So once again, thanks.
triad4evrPosted on 08/09/06 at 18:51:40

Is there going to be a way to update an existing TNM to the improved moves list? Mine is pretty "standard" and I'd love to know what got changed so I can edit it on my end to bring it in line. What I don't want to have to do is a total re-install cuz my TNM database is all custom-built non-real wrestlers with hundreds of cards completed. I couldn't even re-import them into a new TNM cuz they'd bring their messed up moves with, if there are messed up moves. Any thoughts?
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 18:53:31

As I understand it, there wouldn't be anything you can do. Unless Oliver is adding the feature to export moves, I don't think there is a work around unless you do the editing yourself. Hopefully I'm wrong, though.
triad4evrPosted on 08/09/06 at 18:58:04

No, what I mean is if somebody finds out "Standing Wristlock" does too much damage and thinks it should be reduced to, I dunno, 5, and that is agreed on to be the standard that will now be used in fixing these updated wrestlers, I want to know, so I can change my Standing Wristlock to match. Moves _are_ exported. With each wrestler export. So, as a result, if I'm going to fall in line with the updated versions of this export, I need to know what changed, a clean install won't tell me anything, cuz I won't be importing any "real" wrestlers after the update.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/09/06 at 19:23:37

OK, I see what you are saying. I thought you were looking for move exports, which don't come individually. I'll try and log all the changes that I make so I can let you know what needs to be changed. I'll try and keep it to the things that are most vital. So far, alot of what I see wrong isn't necessarily move damages but moves that could end the match. Even if a move doesnt have "may end match" checked, I have noticed that it can still end a match. Perfect example was the standing wristlock. You basically have to turn the move from a submission move to a regular move. No one is ever going to win a match with it, so you almost need to treat it as a transition.

You won't see X has Y in the wristlock for 30 seconds anymore.

It'll be more like X executes a standing wristlock on Y. This will eliminate the chance of simple moves like that ending a match.
actnmPosted on 08/10/06 at 01:17:57

I'll jump in here because I've run into a lot of these same issues, mainly the Push and Workrate numbers. I'll add another layer to this: I use wrestlers from the 70s and 80s as well, for a true "Fantasy Wrestling" federation. Everyone is at their peak. So Dick Murdoch vs. Triple H not only takes place, but it's competitive.

I think the key is twofold. We need to set a middle ground of Push and Workrate, and place "average" wrestlers there. Then we need to work up and down. One thing I did was subtract 50 points from the push of all women wrestlers. That way they could not compete with the men but could still compete with each other. In the Excel file now, Trish is pushed equally with Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, JBL and Mick Foley. She might have an equal workrate, but her push should not be equal to the guys.

The second thing is we need to determine how today's wrestlers stack up to yesterday's wrestlers. (I have a ton of these from the earlier TNM. I've read Oliver's "All Wrestlers" export doesn't exist anymore, but that's where I got them from.) How does Triple H compare to Dick Murdoch? If Trips is a 95 push, does that make Murdoch an 85? 87? What about vintage Andre? There's a 100, probably about equal to vintage Hogan and Triple H at his peak.

Finally, ask yourself if you're trying to replicate wrestlers in their peak or current form. Ric Flair today? Push about 70. Ric Flair in 1986? Push is 98.

I've followed wrestling for about 30 years. If you need assistance from a historical perspective, I'd be glad to help. I really appreciate what you guys are trying to do. Good luck.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/10/06 at 01:28:47

The only problem with setting women's pushes that low is that now when they wrestle each other, it will be extremely hard for them to put on great wrestling matches (I would think anyway).  Did you find that to be the case?  Push has an effect on match quality, so has it adversely affected that?
actnmPosted on 08/10/06 at 01:44:13

I hadn't really noticed. They aren't giving me 4-star matches, but I don't expect that either. I've run a couple tournaments, so I can check when I get home, but I think they regularly gave me 1- and 2-star matches. The workrate seems to matter more than push when it comes to good matches. The Sheik, for instance, has a high push and a low workrate, and I get horrid matches out of him.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/10/06 at 02:29:10

Here's the new excel file with all of the updated information. I'm still working on doing the editing of the export pack. There was more information than I thought. Regardless, I'll keep everyone posted.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=3FF44F615FC1BA4A
rey619Posted on 08/10/06 at 12:25:38

On 08/10/06 at 01:28:47, Snabbit888 wrote:Push has an effect on match quality, so has it adversely affected that?
I still don't agree with you on that, but, very well..  ;D
Unless we get Oliver's own answer to that, all we can do is run a lot of tests.
CarlzillaPosted on 08/10/06 at 12:53:01

On 08/10/06 at 01:28:47, Snabbit888 wrote:Push has an effect on match quality, so has it adversely affected that?
I just ran 20 matches with 2 wrestlers with a 90 for workrate, I changed the push of both wrestlers to be 0 for 10 matches and to be 100 for 10 matches. My conclusion is that push has no effect on match ratings. I got an average of 3 stars no matter what the wrestlers push was set to.
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/10/06 at 14:19:43

Whatever happened to that plugin that was planned which allowed you to edit moves? I remember that you could class submission moves as either tap out or submit with it. I assume it hasn't been released yet?
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/10/06 at 15:03:02

Yeah that has yet to be released, although it would make this alot easier. The problem I am seeing right now is that even if "May end match" isn't checked, the match can still end on that move. I'm trying to find a work around for it.
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/10/06 at 17:13:50

Yeah, I've noticed that happening with the now infamous standing wristlock.
JoshEnglemanPosted on 08/10/06 at 17:23:24

I don't think there is an answer to this problem. I've been trying everything and I can't stop matches from ending with moves like that. I had a test match where someone won with a hiptoss. This just isn't something that should be happening. I'm still working on it, but I don't know what I'm going to do.
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 08/14/06 at 23:27:22

Following up on this - would it be worth putting together an official TNM 7 movelist for all the export makers out there? I know there is one on TNM 3:16 but it is pretty outdated now.
actnmPosted on 08/16/06 at 00:47:25

Publishing a move list would be a great idea. I think TNM UK has a list of sort, where it correlates the main move to it's other names. That helps pare down my move sets when I find I have four versions of a twisting bodyblock or something like that.

One thing that should be done is make sure we also include dives. I realized the damage done by dives is incredibly high, and had to knock them all down significantly. With dives being so damaging, little Rey Misterio could beat Yokozuna regularly because of his dives, while Yoko didn't get additional damage points simply because of his shear size.

Before such a move list gets put together, we need to determine what should be listed. For instance the damage must be listed, but what about "Move Must Be Sold" or "Move Can End Match." What would be most important to TNM users?

With that information, we can find what moves are out of place as far as damage and which have issues like the dreaded standing wristlock ending a match.
phudjiePosted on 08/16/06 at 09:03:31

we tried this a few years ago - it didn't work very well - the problem with move names is that there is no set standard - you're confined to the experiances etc. of the person using the term, for example, let's take sidewalk slam, now - I first heard this move in reference to a spinebuster without the rotation, however, many people know this term as a side suplex; and with this I'm sure we could rattle off a dozen or so such examples. Trying to create a definative list is a fool's errand I think. Even if a definative list were to be created it would only be accurate long enough for a user (any user) to create a new move or export.
rey619Posted on 08/19/06 at 14:32:35

Hey Josh, how does it go with your excel sheets? I noticed you didn't list the ECW guys... I'm curious to whether or not Test deserves a 90 workrate..