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Simple Finance Rules - version 1.0
| rey619 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 02:41:23 OK, couldn't wait until tomorrow... this is by no means a complete ruleset, just wanted to post something coherent, as opposed to the random ramblings in the other thread. I will probably edit this post regularly until I am pleased with layout, writing and such. Important note In order for these rules to work, it's absolutely imperative that you have the Tweak Circuit plugin. Otherwise, you can not check your wrestlers heat, and you will not be able to calculate your income. The A-F theory Throughout these rules, you will be presented with a running theory that everything is ranked from A-F in quality. Everything from the size of your circuit, to the production values you put out, to how much your wrestlers are being paid will be decided through this. A means it's the best, while F means that it's the worst. There are 7 factors that will constantly be ranked from A-F. These are Circuit Size, Workers (including non-wrestlers), Equipment, Production, Marketing, Arena Size and Staff. The other six factors should be at about the same level as your circuit, and there are penalties to your income if any of the factors are below. Circuit Size The first thing you have to do when starting up a circuit (or using these rules with an existing one), is to decide how big it is, in terms of renown. Is it a worldwide phenomena á la WWE? Or is it a small circuit held in an abandoned youth club, where the only crowd is your friends and the rats that live there? Rank your promotion's size from A to F. A - Worldwide. Your circuit's shows can be seen from all corners of the world, and you sometimes tour other continents. Example: WWE. B - National. The promotion has gained national fame, either through a TV deal or PPV's. Example: TNA C - Regional. You are a pretty hot Indy promotion, and your shows are being held not only in one city or state, but over a larger geographical area. Examples. ROH, CZW, IWA:MS D - Small. Your shows are mostly constricted to one or two states, but it's quite possible to carve out a niche for yourself, especially if you hold shows in an area with little or no competition, or come up with a really innovative style. Examples: Chikara, FIP, PWG E - Local. Most of your shows take place in one place, and the talent you are able to pull is relatively unknown unless you are a relative or your name is Mike Tenay. Examples: Shimmer, Sunray Pro, NWA Midwest, Buckeye Pro Wrestling F - Backyard. Most of your shows take place in the same building (or possibly... backyard.. duh..), and the only real publicity you can hope to get is from the high-school newspaper. Examples: Don't really know any backyard feds... Starting money A - 1d6x 4,000,000 $ B - 1d6 x 1,000.000 $ C - 1d6 x 100,000 $ D - 1d6 x 50,000 $ E - 1d6 x 20,000$ F - 1d6 x 1,000$ Paying your workers To find out how much your workers are being paid, all wrestlers must be assigned a value from A-F on which wage category they belong to. Assigning values to every wrestler in the TNM database is waaay to time consuming, so it's important that you do this yourself. Remember, these rules are mainly for your own joy, and if you really want to put the Rock in category F just to avoid paying him a lot of money, you cheat only yourself. Where to put a wrestler can not be governed by a rule, it must be judged by a case-to-case basis. It's futile to discuss whether John Cena or Ric Flair will be paid more than the other, it's TOTALLY up to you. The following examples are a rough guideline only: A - World class. These are the top names in the wrestling industry today, and unless you are a world class circuit, chances are you'll blow your entire budget and end up in debt if you use any of these. Examples: Stone Cold, the Rock, Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels B - Household name. These are the midcarders of worldwide promotions, and if released from one, will act as a huge draw on the Indy scene. Examples: Rey Mysterio, Shelton Benjamin, RVD, Ric Flair C - Top Indy. These stars are extremely sought-after on the indy scene, and it's not unusal for them to be as busy as someone under contract to a bigger circuit. This section also includes openers and lower midcarders for worldwide circuits. Examples: AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels, Monty Brown, Doug Basham, Paul Birchall D - Medium indy. These can be midcarders or opneres in bigger indy feds, or among the stars in more local indy circuits. Examples: Jimmy Jacobs, Chris Hero, Azriael, the Messiah, Claudio Castagnoli E - Lower indy. You've probably never heard of these guys, and if you have, it's only because you have a very intense relationship with wrestling. These guys spend most of their times in very small promotions where the number of wrestlers often exceed the crowd. Examples: Davey Andrews, Trik Davis, Rob Eckos F - Backyarder. These people have no formal training, but enjoys putting on shows for family and friends nonetheless. Once in a while one of these workers can work their way to a bigger promotion, or probably end up in a wheelchair. Examples: None. Playing a backyard fed is probably only possible with fantasy wrestlers. Payment A - d6x1000$ B - d6x500$ C - d6x250$ D - d6x100$ E - d6x50$ F - d6x10$ The payments are per show, not per card. If you have the card multiplier on 3, you pay a worker 3 times that amount (if he is booked 3 times, that is). Optional rule: Using overness to assign wage category One way of deciding on a wage category is to create a new (non-computerized) stat called Overness. This dictates how big a name you are in the wrestling world, not in your circuit. This new stat also ranges from 1-100, and rough guidelines to who should be put where are: The Rock: 100 Triple H: 95 Ric Flair: 90 Rob Van Dam: 85 Christian: 80 Jeff Jarrett: 75 AJ Styles: 70 Samoa Joe: 65 Christopher Daniels: 60 Bryan Danielson: 55 Jimmy Rave: 50 Chris Hero: 45 Jay Lethal: 40 John Walters: 35 Colt Cabana: 30 Deranged: 25 Mariko Yoshida: 20 Ricky Landell: 15 Davey Andrews: 10 Shane Hagadorn: 5 Brandon Harwell: 0 (I think he is a backyarder ;D A = 91-100 B = 71-90 C = 51-70 D = 31-50 E = 11-30 F = 0-10 Managers, Valets, Announcers and Interviewers In addition to wrestlers, you need people to fill the various other roles of a wrestling promotion. If you want to have TV-shows, PPV's or DVD releases, you'll need announcers. Interviewers may help increase the quality of interviews (especially with not-so-charismatic workers), and managers and valets can be beneficial for wrestlers and the promotion alike. As with my earlier posts, rank your non-wrestlers from A-F to find out the price you pay them for each show. A - d6x500$ B - d6x250$ C - d6x150$ D - d6x50$ E - d6x25$ F - d6x5$ If a wrestler occupies a non-wrestling position, like color commentary, managing and so on, you only pay him for one of the tasks (the highest paid one). This is a clever method for many smaller circuits to save some money. Example: Your Size C circuit uses CM Punk both on color commentary and as wrestler. You have ranked him D as a wrestler, and E as an announcer. You pay him 200$ (die roll 2 x 100) as a wrestler and 25 $ (die rolle 1 x 25) as an announcer. Punk is paid a total of 200 dollar per show, not 225. Equipment and Other Monthly Costs In order for your promotion to work, you need stage equipment, staff, production equipment and marketing costs. Every one of these four areas will also be ranked from A-F. If your equipment is below the same rank as your circuit's size, chances are that you won't advance, while equipment beyond your rank may propel you faster, if you can stomach the cost, that is. Equipment This is everything from the ring itself, to the stage, to pyrotechnics, maybe a Titantron and so on. You pay a 1-time fee for this, and then 10% in maintenance cost every month. Staff Everything from security guards to physicians to the ticket lady, road agents and the ring crew (if you have Dunn and Marcos you'll save 10% ) Production Even if you don't have a TV-show or DVD-releases, chances are you will have some sort of technological equipment, be it a microphone or speaker system to play entrance themes for your wrestlers. Marketing This has to do with advertising, be it on the Internet, through TV or radio commercials, or simply printing out colored (or black & white) posters from your computer and posting them at the local shopping mall. Production and Equipment needs to be purchased at the amount listed before the slash, and you pay the number behind the slash each month for maintenance. Marketing and staff only require you to pay the amount listed after the slash, every month. If you for some reason didn't hold a show that month, you don't need to pay anything. A - 600,000 $ / 60,000$ B - 50,000 $ / 5,000$ C - 10,000$ / 1,000$ D - 5,000$ / 500 $ E - 1,500$ / 150 $ F - 500 $ / 50 $ Arenas Just how many people an arena can room, or how many who show up is not an issue in the Simple Rules. Again, the arenas are listed from the largest to the smallest. A - $30,000 B - $5000 C - $1000 D - $500 E - $200 F - $50 Earning money Now over to the fun part. Surprisingly, calculating your income is not as time consuming as calculating your expenses. In the simple version, all your income is directly tied to your wrestlers heat ratings. Unfortunately, this requires you to have the TweakCircuit plug-in. 1. After each show, find the current Heat rating for all your participating wrestlers, and divide by the number of wrestlers. In other words, find the average heat. Include at least 3 decimals. 2. Throw 2d6 and multiply it with the average heat. 3. Multiply that result by a factor decided by your circuit size. A - 20000 B - 10000 C - 500 D - 250 E - 100 F - 10 ... to be continued when the author isn't so darned tired... ::) |
| Socko | Posted on 03/11/06 at 11:35:32 Right, looking good so far Rey ... Though personally I'll be more interested in the advanced version, this is a nice way to make these rules more accessible. Also, there is another way to check wrestler Heat ratings ... *cheap plug alert warning* ... the current version of my MatchMaker plugin displays wrestler Heat ratings (the first column of red numbers), and is available here ... http://www.troyperry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/MM3.zip If there's any interest, I'll be more than happy to make the rules that have been posted to date into an Excel spreadsheet. I certainly don't mind making them into a plugin/program once they're settled on (sadly I may soon have time on my hands to do this), but I feel a spreadsheet would be more practical at this time as it can be tweaked easier in testing. Arena sizes Are you going to automatically pick the arena ranked on your circuit's size now that you're using Heat to determine Income? Eg, will a World Class circuit 'have' to use 'A' sized arenas? The reason I ask is that they don't have a bearing on Income now (other than outgoing costs). I also think that a number of tests should be done on the 'average heat' calculation. I'll certainly do a few here. I'd be very interested to see if there's much variance in this figure over time. Whilst I agree that it's a good idea, I just don't know how practical it is to use the average figure for the entire roster. I guess that's what testing is here for though, so let's see how this goes :) If after testing the figure seems pretty static, it could always be reduced to the average Heat of the wrestlers involved in perhaps the main and semi-main on each card. Another idea I have would take the Earning Money calculation a step further to include the card rating, and then have the 'circuits style' factored in. I'll post more on this later though. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 13:01:25 I probably shouldn't have posted the rules half done, but I just couldn't keep my eyes open anymore last night. Yes, the circuit picks a venue based on its size. An A-level promotion doesn't need a size A venue, but it will receive a -1 penalty on the 2d6 die roll. I DO believe that the numbers need to be tweaked, especially in the higher regions. I just don't think A-level promotions will ever stand a chance of losing any money with the current wage system. The reason I post this now, mostly non-playtested, is so that you guys can help me out using these rules and pointing out flaws and such. I will definetely try to come up with advanced rules. The advance rules will include 'promotion styles', meaning that in a Pure fed, match ratings are important, while a 'Sports Entertainment' will grow faster if the workers are charismatic and they pull of a lot of successful non-wrestling segment. This will be a major undertaking though. The advanced rules will also probably calculate crowd attendance, merchandise/dvd sales, and possibly things like backstage trouble and so on. For instance, you will somtimes have people in the locker room who refuses to job, and who tries to boss his way around. The rules won't say anything about who it is (that will be for you to decide), but it will affect your show rating unless your Respect stat is high enough to offset it. Bear in mind, these are just random thoughts I'm having, the exact method of doing this is something I haven't touched upon yet. |
| Unright | Posted on 03/11/06 at 21:11:48On 03/11/06 at 11:35:32, Socko wrote:Also, there is another way to check wrestler Heat ratings ... *cheap plug alert warning* ... the current version of my MatchMaker plugin displays wrestler Heat ratings (the first column of red numbers), and is available here ...Cool.. I didn't know there was a new version.. What's the meaning of the second column of red numbers? |
| Socko | Posted on 03/11/06 at 21:20:23On 03/11/06 at 21:11:48, Unright wrote:What's the meaning of the second column of red numbers?The second column of red numbers shows 'adjusted ranking points' for each wrestler. The formula is ... (TNM Ranking Points / No. of Matches [Min 5])*(Push Rating/100) .. it's a system I've been using for a while, just a preference I have for sorting out rankings. :) |
| Socko | Posted on 03/12/06 at 15:04:44 I've almost completed the spreadsheet for the rules thus far Rey. I'll email it your way on completion so that you can check it through. Edit: Sent to the addy listed in your profile Rey. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/12/06 at 17:41:11 Okay, I've had a chance to play around with this now, and I think that the Income needs addressing as it's too high as things stand at present. Using a pure math approach we may be able to get figures that will work better though. Here's an example... Circuit Size: C (Regional) Equipment, Staff, Marketing & Production: All C Roster: I set up what I thought was a reasonable roster for a Regional sized circuit. This comprised of 4 B level wrestlers, 12 C level wrestlers, and 8 D level wrestlers. Wages: I used averages for this. An average D6 roll is 3.5, so they worked out as follows... B level talent: (4*500)*3.5 = $7,000 C level talent: (12*250)*3.5 = $10,500 D level talent: (8*100)*3.5 = $2,800 Total combined: $20,300 Non-Wrestling Talent: I hire 2 announcers, 1 interviewer, and 2 managers. To keep things simple they are all rated C. (5*150)*3.5 = $2,625 For this test I also stick with C sized arenas, and I use two-thirds of my wrestlers (16) on a card along with all of the non-wrestling talent. Here's how things pan out ... Salary (wrestlers): $13,600 - (20,300*0.67) Salary (non-wrestlers): $2,625 Equipment: $1,000 Staff: $1,000 Production: $1,000 Marketing: $1,000 Arena: $1,000 Total Expenditure: $21,225 As this is a new circuit let's say that the average is Heat is still the default 5. And due to this, I feel that I should need to roll an 8 on the 2xD6 to be close to breaking even. (5*5000)*8 Ticket Sales: $200,000 As can be seen, I'd make a massive and unrealistic profit off this. Now, let's change the income value for a C sized circuit to a mere $500 instead of the original $5,000. (5*500)*8 Ticket Sales: $20,000 From this result I would lose $1,225. And considering the default Heat value at this stage it would appear a little more workable. Using this method, we could establish a rough breakdown of a roster for each rank of circuit, and use this pure math approach to obtain more accurate figures perhaps? |
| Rick Garrard | Posted on 03/13/06 at 03:15:15 You know a few things most folks always miss when looking at the financial side? a) The cost and upkeep of a ring (the frame, the wood, the ropes, the posts, the mat, etc.) *** wish list idea... there should be like a 1 in 50,000 seed in TNM that your ring will break in the middle of a match forcing the ref to either call off the match or having the guys work out on the floor until it's time for the finish to take place *** b) Lighting for the arena (do you use the lights already in the arena, do you bring your own portable units on generators, or do you have a complex spider system like WWE?) c) Pyro, entrance music rights fees, ring announcers, and other things having to do with ring intros. And I'll post more when I think of them. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/13/06 at 08:29:59 Socko: Wohoo... definetely needs to be tweaked down to 500... I believe most Indy companies lose money in the beginning. RoH actually lost money in its first two years before the numbers started improving. I don't want your circuits to suffer financially for two years (let's face it, few circuits last that long anyway), but to have your circuit lose some money the first few shows (unless you throw your dice pretty good), it's not unrealistic. When heat starts rising, you should be able to make some bucks. As someone else mentioned, we should do some test with higher heat ratings as well. I will do it with my IWA:NE promotion that have lasted almost 40 cards now, and where I have a whole bunch of people on the Hotlist. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/13/06 at 08:32:57On 03/13/06 at 03:15:15, Rick Garrard wrote:You know a few things most folks always miss when looking at the financial side?I think I actually have all of your items calculated. Announcers are a part of non-wrestlers, ring maintenance is part of the maintenance you pay each month, lighting, pyro and such are part of the equipment item, and sound and titantron part of the production item. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/13/06 at 19:13:46 IWA:NE Example To see what things will be like after a number of shows, I decided to use my long-term IWA:NE fed, that has been running for almost 40 cards. Since this was based on Critic's ROH Rules, I put it in the class C category. At the last show, I grouped the wrestlers into these categories. For simplicity, everyone got paid average. Wrestlers A - 1 ($3500x1) = $3500 B - 2 ($1750x2) = $3500 C - 19 ($875x19) = $16625 D - 5 ($350x5) = $1750 E - 2 ($175x2) = $350 Total worker cost = $25,725 Non-wrestlers Two announcers (both C), interviewer (C) and manager (B) = $2450 Stuff Everything is at level C... equals $5000 Expenses Wrestler cost: $25725 Non-wrestler cost: $2450 Stuff*: $4000 Arena hire: $1000 Total: $33175 * - I'm still looking for better terms here.. a word that can cover the items of production, equipment, marketing and staff. Miscellaneous? Income Checking the heat of my 29 workers taking part on the show, I find the following breakdown. Heat 3 - 1 wrestler Heat 5 - 9 wrestlers Heat 6 - 1 wrestler Heat 7 - 1 wrestler Heat 8 - 3 wrestlers Heat 9 - 14 wrestlers.. Total heat of 211/29 worker = 7,275. I roll a 7 (which also happens to be the average). Result: $25,465 Profit/loss: ($25465 - $33175) = - $7710 OK, so I lost quite a bit actually, but let's look behind the numbers. As you can see, I actually have an A wrestler here (Chris Jericho, debatable, but still...) and two B wrestlers. I did not adjust their heat. If I adjust his and the two B-wrestlers' heat, I end up with about $500 more income. Another interesting part, if I lost $7000 every show, for 40 shows, I would have lost $280000 by now, and would have had only $70000 left before I was bankrupt. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think it's too unreasonable for Indy circuits to lose money the first couple of years. I say this proves that the formula works for Class C circuits (and I've already proven that it does the same for class D). I'll do an example afterwards with my TNA circuit (class B), although I don't think my rules will allow for realism here.. (as TNA loses hundreds of thousands each month..) Another thing to ask ourselves... is a star two levels above the circuit really worth only a couple of hundred bucks? If Chris Jericho suddenly appeared in RoH, won't they make more money than that? It really doesn't justify hiring him.. moneywise. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/13/06 at 19:37:52 Hmmm .. interesting results Rey. Another suggestion then if I may after seeing these as I personally feel that you should be making cash at that stage of your circuit, and especially with that Heat ... Star Power You make a valid point re: Jericho, perhaps we should add bonuses for talent ranked higher than the circuit. How about adding +2 to the 2xD6 roll for anybody ranked 2 higher than the circuit, and +0.5 for anyone ranked 1 higher? On your show this equates to ... (500*7.275)*(7+3) = $36,375 $36,375 - $33175 = $3,200 profit. Not a lot of gain, but then you did use a large amount of wrestlers on your show. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/13/06 at 20:13:53 That's a good suggestion Socko.. as you can see from your numbers, pulling in Jericho and the two B wrestlers (Nakamura and Tanahashi by the way), actually helped me bring in an extra ten grand. Should we put a cap on this star power? Since big name stars will always earn you more money than you lose, there would be an easy way to riches.. just hire a lot of A level talent. As has been seen from history, hiring all the top talent doesn't necessarily pay in the long run (WCW anyone)... however.. these are the simple rules.. let's not forget that.. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/13/06 at 22:04:55 OK, time for another test, this time the E-level circuit. Instead of using a TNM fed, I'll use the Elite Wrestling circuit out of Florida, which I feel is an E-sized promotion. Starting money: $70,000 Initial expenses (Equipment/production level E): $3000 Wrestlers C: Roderick Strong, Chris Kanyon ($1750) D: Ray Gordy, Sal Rinauro. Vordell Walker, Buck Quartermain, Mikey Batts, Machete ($2800) E: Erick Stevens, Bruce Steele, Scott Davis, Tommy Vandal, Steve Madison, Antonio Banks, Jay Fury, Murphy ($1400) Others: C: Bill Alfonson (manager) $525 E: Two announcers ($175) Wage bill: $6650 Maintenance: $600 Arena: $200 Show expenses: $7450 Money prior to first show: $59550 For income, let's assume nobody rises in Heat, and that again, the 2d6 roll comes up 7. The calculation will be something like this... (5x7x100 equals $3500) - a solid loss, but what do you expect when you bring down Roderick Strong... if we try Sockos Star Level method, the roll actually becomes a 14! This brings the income to $7000, which still is a loss of a few hundred quids. Expect things to improve as the heat rises. I'm moderately happy with this result, but I still think there should be a cap on how many Star Level points you should receive. Also, I don't think above-circuit-level stars should get BOTH a plus on their initial heat ratings and the Star Level. I think that Star Level is the way to go either way, as a couple of wrestlers with a higher heat rating doesn't that much of a difference if there's a lot of workers. Hmm... maybe instead of capping the Star Level points, we could limit the number of shows a wrestlers above average star level applies? I mean, Strong and Kanyon probably drew some extra cash at the first events, being big names and all, but eventually the fans will feel it's normal that they're there, and the effect will wear off? Maybe that's for the advanced rules. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/14/06 at 00:16:44On 03/13/06 at 22:04:55, rey619 wrote:I'm moderately happy with this result, but I still think there should be a cap on how many Star Level points you should receive. Also, I don't think above-circuit-level stars should get BOTH a plus on their initial heat ratings and the Star Level. I think that Star Level is the way to go either way, as a couple of wrestlers with a higher heat rating doesn't that much of a difference if there's a lot of workers.You make a valid point. The +7 Star Power modifier was far too much. And in my humble opinion, that's a VERY strong roster for an E level circuit. They should run a horrendous loss if this was a TNM circuit, don't you think? On 03/13/06 at 22:04:55, rey619 wrote:Hmm... maybe instead of capping the Star Level points, we could limit the number of shows a wrestlers above average star level applies? I mean, Strong and Kanyon probably drew some extra cash at the first events, being big names and all, but eventually the fans will feel it's normal that they're there, and the effect will wear off? Maybe that's for the advanced rules.Agreed, we could add more complexity to the Advanced Rules imo Rey. For these Simple Rules how about merely capping the Star Level bonus to a maximum of 2.5 or 3? Also, we might need to look at the default Income levels for these other feds. $500 appears about right for a C level fed, but what of the others? I'll assist with some pure math calcs on these when I have more time too :) Perhaps the circuit's 'level' could be determined by the strength of the roster? If we score the wrestlers based on their rank, then work out the average? 'A' level workers = 6 points; B = 5; C = 4; D = 3; E = 2; F = 1. Totalling up Elite Wrestling roster, they score 42 points from 16 wrestlers. 42 / 16 = 2.625 Now, we could determine the circuit level based off this figure. How about ... 4.5 or Higher = 'A' level circuit 4.0 to 4.499 = 'B' 3.0 to 3.999 = 'C' 2.5 to 2.999 = 'D' 1.5 to 2.499 = 'E' 1.499 or under = 'F' Looking at these figures we can see that the Elite Wrestling roster's score of 2.625 would make it a 'D' sized circuit. My test circuit scores 3.833 making it a 'C' sized federation. Your IWA:NE scores 3.827, also making it a 'C' sized circuit. Perhaps this could be used for promotion/relegation of the circuit level? Heck, we could even throw in modifiers for the equipment huh? :) |
| Socko | Posted on 03/14/06 at 00:31:32 Another alternative for the Star Power bonus ... How about these guys earn you Star Power dice? A worker two levels higher than the circuit earns 3xSP dice, while a worker one level higher earns 1xSP die. If we try this example on Elite Wrestling ... 2x C workers = 2*3 = 6 SP dice. 6x D workers = 6*1 = 6 SP dice. As a result, Elite Wrestling rolls 12xD6 Star Power dice, and receive a +1 modifier bonus for each 6 rolled. On average, and assuming all of these wrestlers appeared on each show, Elite (as an E level circuit) would get a +2 bonus for the Income roll. This way, you can't bank on these names securing Income, but it does increase the possibility? |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/16/06 at 10:18:33 Just wanted to let you know that I've definetely NOT abandoned the project.. just been a little busy watching wrestling and creating exports. So the simple rules will be wrapped up eventually, much thanks to Socko's help! |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/16/06 at 21:42:57 Socko: I really like your idea about Star Power dice. However, this is probably as detailed as I want to go with the simple rules. Another thing.. an A level circuit has a problem with the system as it is.. as it stands now, they can't bring in anyone new that will help the product. I suggest that we either give NEW A level wrestlers star dice, or/and that we add another level of wrestler, the A+ level. These wrestlers will probably be restricted to the likes of Stone Cold, the Rock, Hogan, Goldberg and Scott Steiner... eh... never mind the last one... and are workers that could in real life have joined the WWE and boosted the ratings. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/16/06 at 22:42:04 http://www.creativevideo.com/USWA/Salaries.doc[url] wanted to throw that link up for you guys to see how much everyone is making. As you can see I made my own changes. After doing the dice roll everyone got the amount to be paid. From there I made a decision to give people a raise based on the importance in my fed. My own rule was I can't give anyone a pay cut, but only rewards. AJ, Low KI, CM Punk ..guys who I use to much in my fed were making less than some jobbers. On the other hand guys like Universo 2000 who is a midcard sable guy is one of the highest paid. ...He might be cut soon due to his contract :) Also I noted I personally am going to give a $500 per show bonus to whoever my heavyweight champ is for every defense he has. Win or lose.. This is just a personal way in my fed to reward the guy who is carrying my circuit. Kinda like a WWE PPV bonus. enjoy... I hope to post my next TV card tonight. It's been run, but the write ups and financial notes need to be made. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/16/06 at 23:21:49 Great work Sean, your changes makes a lot of sense. What I probably will do when hiring new people, is to roll for his salary before I try to hire him. That way, if I think he's to expensive, I won't hire him. Same goes with re-negotiations. I'm really looking forward to you posting the financial outcome. I guess you're probably a level B fed, and as I haven't playtested a level B fed yet, your results will probably help Socko and myself get closer to a complete version. Thanks again. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/18/06 at 15:07:56 Stumbled over this at another forum... I think this can be a great help determining wages in A level promotions.. It's supposedly what the WWE wrestlers earn. - Ashley Massaro: $131,000 - Batista: $813,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Big Show: $1,000,000 (Base salary) - Bob Holly: $217,000 - Booker T: $375,000 - Candice Michelle: $64,000 - Carlito: $319,000 - Chavo Guerrero: $206,000 - Chris Benoit: $488,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Chris Masters: $253,000 - Christian - $396,000 - Danny Basham: $130,000 - Doug Basham: $126,000 - Eddie Guerrero: $372,000 - Edge: $704,000 - Eugene: $189,000 - Funaki: $124,000 - Gene Snitsky: $292,000 - Gregory Helms: $277,000 - John Cena: $1,743,000 (First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week) - John Layfield: $786,000 (Five star hotel accommodations paid for every week) - Jerry Lawler: $204,000 (First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week) - Jillian Hall: $52,000 - Joey Mercury: $134,000 - Johnny Nitro: $143,000 - Jonathan Coachman: $175,000 - Kane: $ 851,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Ken Kennedy: $133,000 - Kid Kash: $62,000 - Kurt Angle: $1,023,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Lance Cade: $118,000 - Lilian Garcia: $90,000 - Lita: $286,000 (Mostly downside paid due to lack of wrestling) - Maria: $41,000 - Mark Henry: $300,000 (Base pay) - Matt Hardy: $322,000 (Missed over $70,000 of pay due to firing) - Matt Striker: $43,000 - Melina: $155,000 - Mickie James: $72,000 - Nunzio: $186,000 - Orlando Jordan: $145,000 - Paul London: $177,000 - Psicosis: $122,000 - Randy Orton: $711,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Rene Dupree: $289,000 - Rey Mysterio: $414,000 - Ric Flair: $508,000 (First class flight tickets paid for every week) - Rob Conway: $186,000 - Rob Van Dam: $220,000 (Only received downside and royalties due to injury) - Rosie: $105,000 - Shawn Michaels: $1,045,000 (First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week) - Shelton Benjamin: $366,000 - Simon Dean: $132,000 - Stacy Keibler: $178,000 (Only downside paid during absence) - Steven Richards: $94,000 - Torrie Wilson: $260,000 - Trevor Murdoch: $48,000 - Triple H: $2,013,000 (Allowed the personal use of company jet (10) times per year. First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week) - Trish Stratus: $618,000 (Receives 20% of all Trish Stratus merchandise sold) - Tyson Tomko: $127,000 - Undertaker: $1,811,000 (First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week) - Val Venis: $210,000 - Victoria: $275,000 - Viscera: $130,000 - William Regal: $225,000 |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/18/06 at 16:58:51On 03/14/06 at 00:31:32, Socko wrote:Another alternative for the Star Power bonus ...On the flipside, using talent below your promotion's level should penalize you in the same way. I mean, if WWE suddenly had a bunch of CZW guys doing Wrestlemania, I think the ratings would have dropped.. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/18/06 at 17:15:34 OK, I made a test with TNA and their Destination X PPV. Most of their talent is at C level, but I put some at B due to their WWE exposure, and a few at D level as well (Riley, Puma, Machete). The breakdown was this: A - 2 (Sting and Steiner) = $7000 B - 11 = $19250 C - 21 = $18375 D - 3 = $1050 Announcers/valets/etc = $5300 Arenas + misc (all at B level) = $25000 Total expenses: $75975 I put the heat on 5 just for simplicity's sake, and then rolled star power. Since they have 2 wrestlers at A level, I rolled 2d6 and came up with one 6. I then rolled A LOT of dice for negative star power (30d6 total), and came up with seven 1's. This means that the 2d6 roll should receive a total of -6. I assume the minimum should be 1, so if we go by the average, they do roll a 1 (7-6). The result was $50000, a net loss of $25975. Now, I don't think this is unrealistic if we consider TNA's financial losses in real life. If I had rolled max on the dice, I would have ended up with a result of 6, something which would have made TNA a lot of money ($300000-$75975). As it stands, it's quite hard for a B-level promotion to make money, but isn't this the case in real life? They have to bring in star power to get their crowd over, so they will suffer huge losses by doing so. Another question, is the gap between C and B level to big? You multiply your roll with 500 at C level, and 10000 at B level. Of course, if we had lowered the multiplier, TNA would have lost even more money... |
| Socko | Posted on 03/18/06 at 23:17:30 Interesting Rey... I've not had a chance to test any other figures yet, and I would imagine that all of the other Income base numbers will need tweaking before making it workable. Have to say, I'm not too sure about the negative dice rolls (though I can see the thinking). Maybe we should calculate a 'card status' level that determines whether the performers on a card make for a level of show worthy of a 'B' rated fed? Something similar to the 'circuit level' calcs maybe? TNA would have to put out a card full of workers worthy of being on a B circuit's show? An average figure naturally so that you can use lower status talent, with failure to do so resulting in a penalty for the show? On a side note, this thread has inspired me to start work on a similar type of financial calculation system (though it is predominantly based on Push ratings). It's coming along pretty nicely so far, and I've started work on a spreadsheet for it. If you're interested in seeing the system to date Rey, just get in touch bud. This does not mean that I will no longer help out with this project though ... indeed, it may mean more ideas using a different approach :) |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/18/06 at 23:26:59 Just send it along Socko... It seems that this was far more difficult to accomplish than I first thought when I set out to do it.. I guess you need to do a lot of work in order for something to be realistic though. I'm starting to think that the whole A-F system is a little vague.. I mean, I have grouped the likes of Styles, Daniels and Joe in the C category, mostly because they should be affordable to smaller indies. Even so, since they're on a level beneath TNA's status (B), they drag the show's value down... and I seriously doubt that is the case. Basically, what I think should be done is devaluate the rankings system. WWE should become a B level circuit, TNA a C, RoH and CZW a D.. and so on. The workers, equipment, etc will still be ranked through A. This way, even the WWE can pull in someone who'll help the ratings. I will run some figures with the current system using No Way Out as an example, but I do believe that the system's errors will become quite obvious in an A level circuit as it is. For example, this Smackdown, Booker T faced an unknown jobber... dunno who he was, he will probably be an E wrestler... does this mean WWE gets like.. 6 negative dice? Just because Booker T squashed someone? Doesn't make sense. Gah.. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/18/06 at 23:42:21 OK... WWE - No Way Out. Cut a long story short... Wrestlers/non wrestlers: $56700 Arena/misc: $270000 Five times the amount in upkeep and arena costs? Income.. now, I was lucky with my dice.. I had 12 B-workers and 7 C-workers.. total of 33d6.. but still only managed to roll 3 of them. Going by the average heat and die roll assumption... (5*4(7-3)*20000) = $400000 This amounts to ca. $25000 in profit. However, if we go by the assumption that every 6th D6 came up a 1, I would have ended up with a die roll of 2, and a total net loss of $120000 . . . Now I don't know how the WWE are doing financially these days, so I can't verify how realistic it was that they lost that kind amount of money on No Way Out. What seems clear to me is that the A-F ranking system must be altered the way I proposed in the post above. Stars such as Undertaker should always give a + in the WWE, while guys like Matt Hardy and Booker T shouldn't bring negative modifiers (I grouped them in B). I think I will use the wage information I found to adjust the wages. The big dogs (those that will be categorized in the new A level) should be getting something like 1d6x$10000, while B level should be 2d6x$1000. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/19/06 at 19:07:35 Just to update on my own progress ... I have all the calcs in place, and they appear sound so far. The finances aren't going to be true to real-life, but the sliding costs scale that I'm using is workable on circuits of all levels. A couple of screenies from my spreadsheet in progress ... The roster page which will also be used for hiring, contract re-negotiations, and checking wrestler availability if on a Pay-Per-Appearance deal ... Roster Page The 'Equipment' page for setting up your facilities to be used on a show ... Equipment Page Update The 'Finances' page ... Finances Page |
| Socko | Posted on 03/24/06 at 18:37:56 Progress Update The system is coming along quite nicely, and I'm hopeful that the spreadsheet will be done 'n' dusted and ready for testing later tonight. I'm attempting to leave a few of the elements optional so that users can chose to ignore them if they so wish, and I'm also hoping that the sheet will be pretty user-friendly with as little manual input required as possible. Also, as this will only be an initial 'release' there is plenty of room for tweaking and additions, so if anyone thinks of another aspect that could be beneficial just let me know. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/26/06 at 00:28:32 Beta Testers Wanted I'm now looking for testers for the beta version of this financial system. You must have M$ Excel with the Analysis Toolpaks installed, and be willing to provide test feedback. :) Anyone interested should contact me via email (available in my profile), MSN (contact details = my email addy), or AOL IM. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/27/06 at 13:42:47 Testing Begins... With a Beta version of the system ready to roll I've decided to start a test circuit. I've picked a Regional sized Hybrid setup. Here's the starting roster ... Roster. I've also ran the first card. It was a small affair seeing just 5 matches, but the guys did us proud notching a **1/2 card rating. Financial outcome of the first card. Succesful rolls for both advertising and the road manager helps us break even off the card which is a good sign, especially while we try and establish a fanbase. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/27/06 at 13:48:10 For all of you who haven't tried this, DO IT. It's really cool stuff, and not complicated at all. It takes a little time setting up your circuit, but after that, it's real simple. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/28/06 at 05:43:26 How are you getting that page? did you build an excel sheet? if so can you e-mail me a test of it? |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/28/06 at 11:53:59 Troy did indeed build a wonderful excel spreadsheet for it, and as he is in need of beta-testers, he'll probably mail it to you. Questions for you Troy.. 1) I am running a Smackdown-ish fed at B-level at the moment, and at my first show, I lost $6000 in merchandise. Is this because I produced too much relative to my workers heat (all started out at 5). Meaning that I probably should have set it lower? 2) The card rating obviously has an impact on your income, more so in Hybrid and Pure than in Sports Entertainment. Does this mean that Pure has more of a chance to make money than SE? Or, to put it another way, how does SE make money, as it's no way to measure how much interviews and segments score? 3) You should plug the other spreadsheet you made as well, or maybe create a "neutral" version. It's a great way of keeping track of push, feuds, etc, and presents a cool way of adjusting pushes, even in booked/half-booked circuits. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/28/06 at 13:04:32Troy did indeed build a wonderful excel spreadsheet for it, and as he is in need of beta-testers, he'll probably mail it to you.I shall indeed email a copy of the sheet to you Sean, as soon as I get home from work :) The more testers - the better. Questions for you Troy..Uh-oh .. :P 1) I am running a Smackdown-ish fed at B-level at the moment, and at my first show, I lost $6000 in merchandise. Is this because I produced too much relative to my workers heat (all started out at 5). Meaning that I probably should have set it lower?At present the Merchandising feature should be viewed as 'a gamble' meaning that you were just plain unlucky on that show. This is an area that I will look to expand in the future, but for now that's all it is. 2) The card rating obviously has an impact on your income, more so in Hybrid and Pure than in Sports Entertainment. Does this mean that Pure has more of a chance to make money than SE? Or, to put it another way, how does SE make money, as it's no way to measure how much interviews and segments score?Wrestler Heat is the key factor for Sports Entertainment circuits, and as you've only just begun they are all pretty average at present (as you said, they all started at 5), but once Heat improves you'll notice it's impact on your shows. So, if someone's over with the crowd, and you wanted to book an 'interview', you could simply set them as having 'appeared' on that show perhaps? 3) You should plug the other spreadsheet you made as well, or maybe create a "neutral" version. It's a great way of keeping track of push, feuds, etc, and presents a cool way of adjusting pushes, even in booked/half-booked circuits.Hehe .. funny you should mention that. I've incorporated those other sheets of mine into these financial ones for my own use (and have also re-created the Push change sheet to make it a little easier to use) ... I shall pass this version onto you if interested rey :) |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/28/06 at 13:50:42 I'm probably interested in everything that comes out of your creative mind ;D I think I know why the merchandise bombed heavily.. I didn't realize that you had to select the Used ? Yes button in a circuit with written contracts, as I thought that was only used for wages. So, basically, I ran a show without anybody in it :P We should definetely write a short manual when the beta-testing is done. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/29/06 at 02:05:36 Right, while testing continues I'm also looking to add a cosmetic touch or two, so ... ... does anybody want a Nielsen Rating style 'score' for their regular shows? And/or buyrates (either rating or 'number of buys?) for large PPV-style shows? I already have a strong idea on how to implement this, and though it won't have any impact on the system as such, it might just be a nice touch to have it in there maybe? |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/29/06 at 09:07:01 Yes please! (But you already knew that...) |
| antonyrellixx | Posted on 03/30/06 at 01:10:57 Are the rules on the main post the most up-to-date? I'd like to implement these rules in a fed, but I don't have excel... I can, however, use Microsoft Works Spreadsheet - any idea if that would work? |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/30/06 at 08:21:53 The end result of this project is a spreadsheet that differs drastically from my humble beginnings. The calculations used to determine income and expenses are quite complicated if you want to do them without a spreadsheet. I can't answer the compatability question though.. but I guess Socko can. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/30/06 at 21:17:24On 03/30/06 at 01:10:57, antonyrellixx wrote:I'd like to implement these rules in a fed, but I don't have excel... I can, however, use Microsoft Works Spreadsheet - any idea if that would work? On 03/30/06 at 08:21:53, rey619 wrote:I can't answer the compatability question though.. but I guess Socko can.I *can* answer the question, and my answer sadly is that I have absolutely no idea! However, if you can provide me with a contact address antony I'd be more than happy to send you a version 'saved in Works format' from Excel 2003 for you to try it. In fact, I'd be very appreciative if you could .. it may mean that more people can use it if it functions correctly. :) Also, I do not have a contact address for you SeanH529. If you're still interested please get in touch :) Update The workbook now includes the Push changing system that I use (optional of course), and also produces attendance figures, and TV / PPV ratings. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/30/06 at 22:58:49 can you e-mail to shovan123@aol.com thanks |
| antonyrellixx | Posted on 03/31/06 at 00:51:13 johnnymonoxidefr@yahoo.com - send it there, if you would. |
| Socko | Posted on 03/31/06 at 13:34:26On 03/31/06 at 00:51:13, antonyrellixx wrote:johnnymonoxidefr@yahoo.com - send it there, if you would.antony - I've had a chance to try the workbook out using a 'Works' format and sadly it will not function in that environment. Soon, I may look at either; 1) Making it compatible with OpenOffice (a freeware office package); 2) Converting the system into a stand-alone program. Until then, I can but apologise. |
| JoshEngleman | Posted on 03/31/06 at 20:06:19 Lemme tell you what, this new versions is COMPLEX. I only had a few minutes to look at it before I went to class, but all I can say is wow! Thanks alot for all the work you've done. Expect some questions because I was a little confused out of the gate. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/31/06 at 21:28:31 It looks quite daunting, and it will probably need a manual, but once you get a hang on it, it's really easy. |
| JoshEngleman | Posted on 04/06/06 at 01:32:02 Just wanted to get this out there before I forget. If you could add some more match types to the push changing option, that'd be great. Maybe a triangle and four corners match. Maybe one elimination match. These are just some things I've been thinking about. |
| rey619 | Posted on 04/09/06 at 11:52:45 Well, in those instances, just use a singles box, and then use only the wrestler pinning, and the wrestler pinned. Those not involved in the decision has no chance of moving up and down. Same goes for six-man tags, eight man tags and so on. Choose two out of each team and put them in the tag-team brackets. |
| Socko | Posted on 04/30/06 at 13:49:16 Just a reminder that this project is still up and running to anyone interested. I've started a test circuit using this system (link in my profile) so if any issues arise I'll post about them. I'm also still taking suggestions if any of you guys think of anything. Any and all are welcome. :) |
| Psymin1 | Posted on 05/28/06 at 01:10:27 Hey guys, just wondering if you're still tweaking the rules at all, or if what we have here is a finished version. I want to request, though, that when you do get a "Final" version of these rules, could you make a new thread, without all the added posts. I really want to use these rules, and so I tried to cut and paste it all to Word so I could print it out, but the only post that I could really use to do this is the first one, and you said it wasn't completely finished at that point. Ok, that's all I got. Thanks a lot for your work on this, it is very appreciated. And I can't wait to get a fed up and running based on these rules. Keep it up. ~Branden |
| rey619 | Posted on 05/28/06 at 01:52:22 Branden, my rules were hijacked by Troy Perry (socko), who made an excellent excel spreadsheet. They deviate quite a bit from my ruleset, but he told me I inspired him to make it, so I take some credit for it ;D Contact him at his registered e-mail address and he will send it to you. He's always interested in feedback. |
| Psymin1 | Posted on 05/28/06 at 03:48:26 Oh, i didn't relize they were (sort of) two seperate things. I thought he built the spreadsheet around your rules, as sort of a way to look at his finances on one piece of paper. Thanks though. I will email him right now. ~Branden |
