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Wrestling moves

UnrightPosted on 05/18/06 at 06:20:31

Hey all,

I'm working on improving my movelist. Several listing of the same move under different names or with slight variations is getting a little redundant. I'm also trying to improve move damage amounts and counters. So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions in this thread as I make my way through my movelist, so thanks in advance for any and all answers.

Is the only difference between a cutter and a stunner the angle at which the opponent is at the moment of impact? A push-off is a counter for a stunner, is there other counters? For different styles?

A push-off doesn't seem possible for a cutter, are there any counters for it?

Should they both do 100 damage, or should one be more damaging?
phudjiePosted on 05/18/06 at 09:59:33

.....I think they should both do the same damage, they both do the same damage on my TNM, however I have them both as coming with pins automatically, but that is because I consider them to be possible match ending moves so I consider it logical that someone would attempt a pin after hitting one, I'm sure that DDP has had his Diamond Cutter blocked with a push-off before. I can see both moves being blocked with a forearm to the back by a brawler.....anyways I'm just throwing stuff out there.....
CrplsPosted on 05/18/06 at 21:35:00

Diamond Cutters/Ace Crushers are countered by push-offs all the time. I've seen Kojima's countered by a sleeper hold before, so you could possibly make that a counter for technical or shooters.
YunPosted on 05/19/06 at 00:16:53

The main difference between a cutter and a stunner is where the victim ends up. They both start off the same, but a cutter drags the victim's face to the mat similar to a bulldog, while a stunner is more of a jawbreaker/neck snap over the attacker's shoulder. Notice: DDP usually ends up on his back while Steve Austin usually falls into a sitting position. The "bounce up and flop like a fish" manner of taking a stunner (The Rock is especially good at this) is not possible with a cutter.
UnrightPosted on 05/19/06 at 02:34:57

Thanks for the replies..

It seems to me that once the 3/4 facelock is applied to start either the cutter or the stunner, there seems to be little the opponent can do besides push-off. Once the head is locked in, the opponent won't have enough room to hit a forearm to the back, but a heel could probably hit something like a kidney punch. Could a heel also hit a low blow to escape? I've never seen anyone do it...

I didn't consider a sleeperhold as a counter, but I can picture it working if the opponent whips his arm around fast enough to catch under the chin. Maybe sleeperhold for technicians and rear naked choke for shooters.

What about a German Suplex for powerhouses as a counter for the stunner, but not the cutter? Also, is the Hardy's Twist of Fate considered to be a cutter?

I wouldn't check off automatic pinfall attempt, Phudjie. The May End Match flag is sufficient for a wrestler to try to for a pin every once in a while. Automatic Pinfall is more for moves like an inside cradle, where a pinfall has to be counted.
CrplsPosted on 05/19/06 at 09:07:55

I wouldn't check off automatic pinfall attempt, Phudjie. The May End Match flag is sufficient for a wrestler to try to for a pin every once in a while. Automatic Pinfall is more for moves like an inside cradle, where a pinfall has to be counted.
Nah--he's right. I used to think like you on that, but after "fixing" all the moves that shouldn't have had it checked, I realized that it meant tombstones, DVDs, brainbusters, etc pretty much became transition moves and they were checked for a reason.

Although I don't have the Ace Crusher marked as auto-pinfall in my TNMs.
YunPosted on 05/19/06 at 10:40:56

For counters: I'm positive I've seen The Rock use a series of elbows to the midsection to break Austin's 3/4 facelock before. Rock's actually a really good guy to watch for counters to the Stunner, as he's the only guy who's been consistently booked as Austin's equal.

I can't really see the German counter working, since it would probably require breaking the facelock first, unless you and I are defining "counter" differently.

The problem with the sleeper counter is that it wouldn't work for all variations. Matt Hardy, for instance (to answer your question, the Twist of Fate is, indeed, a type of cutter) wouldn't be vulnerable to a sleeper, since he transitions from a front-facelock, the victim is only in the 3/4 for a split second before Matt finishes the move.
phudjiePosted on 05/19/06 at 11:06:13

.....with Matt Hardy though - it's his finisher and would have finisher specific counters.....
.....nobody is right or wrong here - I've got my TNM set-up the way I like it - that's good enough for me - I was just trying to provide an option and/or a different point of view.....
UnrightPosted on 05/20/06 at 16:42:10

On 05/19/06 at 10:40:56, Yun wrote:I can't really see the German counter working, since it would probably require breaking the facelock first, unless you and I are defining "counter" differently.
It would require the recipient of the stunner jerking his head back to break the facelock, but I see what you mean. It would open the floodgates to just about any move that is done when facing the back of your opponent.

I was picturing the recipient of the stunner move planting his feet and wrapping his arms around the waist of the attacker, breaking the facelock and tossing the attacker over with an overhead release german suplex. I've never seen anyone to it, but it seems possible in my head. I'd work more for the stunner than the cutter, because you have to be much close to your opponent to hit the stunner.

On 05/19/06 at 03:07:56, Crpls wrote:Nah--he's right. I used to think like you on that, but after "fixing" all the moves that shouldn't have had it checked, I realized that it meant tombstones, DVDs, brainbusters, etc pretty much became transition moves and they were checked for a reason.
Hmm.. But nowadays not everyone goes for a pin after a move like a DVD or a brainbuster. Maybe it would harkens back to the old days where a DDT was deadly when Jake did it, but just an ordinary move for everyone else.

Also, don't more near falls contribute to a higher match rating? Am I shooting myself in the foot by not checking automatic pinfalls?
John ProulxPosted on 05/21/06 at 00:02:45

Just for the sake of variety, another possible counter to the Ace Crusher would be an atomic knee drop.
rey619Posted on 05/21/06 at 20:23:10

On 05/20/06 at 16:42:10, Unright wrote:
Also, don't more near falls contribute to a higher match rating? Am I shooting myself in the foot by not checking automatic pinfalls?
At least when it's finishers. I booked a 20 minute match between Raven and Jarrett once. Due to both men's lack of a huge moveset, they each kicked out of each other's finisher at least six times each... instant ***** match..