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Rey's "Running a fed project"
| rey619 | Posted on 03/08/06 at 19:08:23 I have been thinking for a while about creating a system of rules that one can use in TNM to control various aspects of your circuits, for example finance and such. Since I'm a terrible programmer, these rules will be more like RPG rules... I have understood it that there are other than myself that play them, so it should be relatively easy to learn. What I'm trying to do at first is provide a framework you can use to calculate your monthly expenses (wages, arena rent, production costs, advertising, etc) and income (ticket money, merchandise, concession stand income, DVD sales). I'll try not to make this too complicated, and I do realize that it's possibly not going to be easy to simulate realistically. Any help is welcome, especially since I'm not an American and may not know what the wrestlers are being paid and such. I have only started on this, but instead of waiting until it's finished, I will update this thread with new things as I think of them, and quite possibly altering them if I receive feedback. Also, even though I originally wanted the rules to include all sorts of RPG dice, I realize that not everyone has them, so I will stick with the normal 6-sided die. Paying your workers To use these rules, all wrestlers must be assigned a value from A-F on which wage category they belong to. Assigning values to every wrestler in the TNM database is waaay to time consuming, so it's important that you do this yourself. Remember, these rules are mainly for your own joy, and if you really want to put the Rock in category F just to avoid paying him a lot of money, you cheat only yourself. Example follows: A - World class. These are the top names in the wrestling industry today, and unless you are a world class circuit, chances are you'll blow your entire budget and end up in debt if you use any of these. Examples: Stone Cold, the Rock, Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels B - Household name. These are the midcarders of worldwide promotions, and if released from one, will act as a huge draw on the Indy scene. Examples: Rey Mysterio, Shelton Benjamin, RVD, Ric Flair C - Top Indy. These stars are extremely sought-after on the indy scene, and it's not unusal for them to be as busy as someone under contract to a bigger circuit. This section also includes openers and lower midcarders for worldwide circuits. Examples: AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels, Monty Brown, Doug Basham, Paul Birchall D - Medium indy. These can be midcarders or opneres in bigger indy feds, or among the stars in more local indy circuits. Examples: Jimmy Jacobs, Chris Hero, Azriael, the Messiah, Claudio Catagnoli E - Lower indy. You've probably never heard of these guys, and if you have, it's only because you have a very intense relationship with wrestling. These guys spend most of their times in very small promotions where the number of wrestlers often exceed the crowd. Examples: Davey Andrews, Trik Davis, Rob Eckos F - Backyarder. These people have no formal training, but enjoys putting on shows for family and friends nonetheless. Once in a while one of these workers can work their way to a bigger promotion, or probably end up in a wheelchair. Examples: None. Playing a backyard fed is probably only possible with fantasy wrestlers. Payment* A - d6x1000$ B - d6x500$ C - d6x250$ D - d6x100$ E - d6x50$ F - d6x10$ * These are pay per appearances only, I will talk about monthly contracts later. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/08/06 at 19:34:34 Just wanted to point out that I know the rules may not come in an orderly fashion.. I'll probably create a word or pdf document when all the rules are finished. Circuit Size It's also important to define the size and status of your promotion. Is it a worldwide phenomena á la WWE? Or is it a small circuit held in an abandoned youth club, where the only crowd is your friends and the rats that live there? Rank your promotion's size from A to F. A - Worldwide. Your circuit's shows can be seen from all corners of the world, and you sometimes tour other continents. Example: WWE. B - National. The promotion has gained national fame, either through a TV deal or PPV's. Example: TNA C - Regional. You are a pretty hot Indy promotion, and your shows are being held not only in one city or state, but over a larger geographical area. Examples. ROH, CZW, IWA:MS D - Small. Your shows are mostly constricted to one or two states, but it's quite possible to carve out a niche for yourself, especially if you hold shows in an area with little or no competition, or come up with a really innovative style. Examples: Chikara, FIP, PWG E - Local. Most of your shows take place in one place, and the talent you are able to pull is relatively unknown unless you are a relative or your name is Mike Tenay. Examples: Shimmer, Sunray Pro, NWA Midwest, Buckeye Pro Wrestling F - Backyard. Most of your shows take place in the same building (or possibly... backyard.. duh..), and the only real publicity you can hope to get is from the high-school newspaper. Examples: Don't really know any backyard feds... Starting money A - 1d6x 4,000,000 $ B - 1d6 x 1,000.000 $ C - 1d6 x 100,000 $ D - 1d6 x 50,000 $ E - 1d6 x 20,000$ F - 1d6 x 1,000$ |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/08/06 at 19:48:26 While not exactly related to finance, I want to create a table where you as the booker can roll on to decide what the reasons for a no-show was. I have tried to come up with a few ideas, but I would like more suggestions. Death in immediate family Sickness in immediate family (may also include birth) Death, but not in immediate family Sickness, but not in immediate family Wrestler injured working another circuit Wrestler injured outside of wrestling Travel problems, not wrestlers fault Travel problems, mixed fault Travel problems, wrestlers fault Double booking, your fault Double booking, mixed fault / misunderstanding Double booking, wrestlers fault Wrestler shows up drunk/stoned/etc No-shows in protest to your booking of him Doesn't have a valid excuse (aka the Jeff Hardy excuse) Forgot about it Wrestler comes up with a valid excuse, but is caught in the lie. This is what I have so far.. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/08/06 at 22:43:13 Hey, just wanted to say the no show excuses are helpful. I never really know what to do creative wise when it comes to no shows. These were some good ideas, that I might take into my circuit. |
| Psymin1 | Posted on 03/08/06 at 23:22:28 Good god, Rey, PLEASE don't stop! This is awesome. I have never really played any RPG's aside from video games, but I can definitely get into this, as it looks really good. I commend you, and I hope you keep it up, as I really want to start one of these bad boys up. Also, If you wanted, you could use dice with a lot of sides, because there is an internet site that has virtual dice: http://hamete.org/dserver/dice That is the website, it is pretty easy to understand once you read the directions. Again, keep up the good work, and I look forward to more updates. ~Branden |
| Unright | Posted on 03/09/06 at 00:02:24 Digging it so far.. Good luck as it's a pretty big undertaking. Also useful as a random number generator: http://www.random.org/nform.html |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 00:07:43 I hadn't thought about virtual dice... Thanks for the feedback so far, I'll definetely expand the rules beyond this, but am not sure how far or how detailed I want it. My goal is to create a system where the circuit can see how much money it's making (or losing), and possibly change size if the shows are huge successes (or failures). My initial plan for calculating how much you make on one show was based on match rating, but I then realized that not every type of promotion benefits from high workrate matches. I will therefore probably steal another idea from TEW, namely that of Promotion Style. So Traditiontal/Pure circuits make money based mostly on work rate, while Sports Entertainment circuits make money on larger-than-life storyline, segments and interviews. How to simulate that is something I have to think about, but it's probably going to be related to the Charisma of the workers and the Heat rating. Many thanks for the encouragment, and please feel free to come with suggestion, alterations and ideas. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 00:52:03 Booker stats You, as the booker, need stats to reflect what kind of booker/owner/promoter you are. Your stats will have an influence on how well your circuit runs. I haven't decided yet to go for the D&D variant with stats ranging from 3-18, or % stats (which may be best considering that's what TNM has), but I have more or less decided on the stats. Wrestling Knowledge This stat represents how well you know the business. Not only will this help you see who the best workers for your promotions are, it will also help the wrestlers perform better, because your insightfulness helps building a better match. Game effect: A high score here will increase the benefits you reap from the match ratings. Business acumen You know when to save a penny, and when to make the most out of a hopeless situation. You are able to negotiate better deals with wrestlers, tv-stations, and to know exactly what price is best for tickets, DVDs and merchandise. Game effect: You'll make more money with a higher score than with a low score. Respect: A respected booker/owner is more likely to keep the politics backstage to a minimum, and to keep the no-shows down. It may also lead to wrestlers far beyond the reach of a circuit your size deciding to make an appearance. Game effect: A higher score means less no-shows, less politics and less backstage trouble in general. Charisma: Some owners/promoters are on-screen presences as well. This stat tells you how well you're helping the promotion by taking the limelight for yourself. But be careful, no matter how high your charisma is, the fans might get sick of watching you and your family every week. Game effect: A high score can help the circuit grow faster, and build more heat on your promotion. Marketing: You know your audience, and know where your promotion and the fans will be best suited. Matching circuit style and audience will be an important part of making money. Game effect: A high score will increase the chances of drawing the right crowd for your style. Ambition: Some promotors are happy performing for crowds of 20-30 people every month, while others want to become the next threat to the big leagues, and in as few years as possible. Game effect: A high score means that you will be able to increase size quicker, but it also means that you can afford less mistakes* * Not sure how this will work out.. a high score may mean both disaster and triumph.. while a low score will mean that you most likely will never increase, and never decrease.. well... we'll see.. |
| Zedja | Posted on 03/09/06 at 12:32:08On 03/08/06 at 19:48:26, rey619 wrote:While not exactly related to finance, I want to create a table where you as the booker can roll on to decide what the reasons for a no-show was. I have tried to come up with a few ideas, but I would like more suggestions.Wrestler got attacked backstage Wrestler got into an accident backstage. Wrestler fell asleep on his own or by drug Wrestler/relative/friend got kidnapped Wrestler was locked into the closet/room Someone stole the wrestlers clothes while taking a shower |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 16:46:34 Those are good suggestions Zedja, I was unsure at first if storyline no-shows should be included, but I'll think I'll put them on the list. |
| Justin | Posted on 03/09/06 at 16:50:09 Maybe a sub-table for storyline no shows. Like if you rolls & certain # it refers you to the sub-table of storyline reasons. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 17:18:00 Managers, Valets, Announcers and Interviewers In addition to wrestlers, you need people to fill the various other roles of a wrestling promotion. If you want to have TV-shows, PPV's or DVD releases, you'll need announcers. Interviewers may help increase the quality of interviews (especially with not-so-charismatic workers), and managers and valets can be beneficial for wrestlers and the promotion alike. As with my earlier posts, rank your non-wrestlers from A-F to find out the price you pay them for each show. A - d6x500$ B - d6x250$ C - d6x150$ D - d6x50$ E - d6x25$ F - d6x5$ If a wrestler occupies a non-wrestling position, like color commentary, managing and so on, you only pay him for one of the tasks (the highest paid one). This is a clever method for many smaller circuits to save some money. Example: Your Size C circuit uses CM Punk both on color commentary and as wrestler. You have ranked him D as a wrestler, and E as an announcer. You pay him 200$ (die roll 2 x 100) as a wrestler and 25 $ (die rolle 1 x 25) as an announcer. Punk is paid a total of 200 dollar per show, not 225. Note on Show Success and Finance I plan to create a way to calculate a show's success, which will be mostly (but not total) dependent on match rating. The success of a circuit will not be closely linked with the financial success, as many promotions can be popular and widely viewed as a success, while their finances are deteriorating (ECW, WCW, possibly TNA in a while..) Every show will receive a success rating (again, A to F), and in order to advance to the next circuit size, you'll need X numbers of very successful shows. Example: In order for your circuit-size C promotion to rise to size B, you need a certain amount of shows to achieve Success Rating B. If your circuit achieves a Rating A, you'll advance faster. If you get D ratings or worse, not only is your advancement stalled, it may also bring you down into the lower category. I haven't touched upon a lot of the details for how to do this yet, but this is what I'm aiming for at the moment. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 17:19:25On 03/09/06 at 16:50:09, Justin wrote:Maybe a sub-table for storyline no shows.Yes, I was thinking about the same. Right now I have 23 no-show reasons. One more, and I have 4 sub-tables that can be divided into 6. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 17:52:01 Equipment and Other Monthly Costs In order for your promotion to work, you need stage equipment, staff, production equipment and marketing costs. Every one of these four areas will also be ranked from A-F. If your equipment is below the same rank as your circuit's size, chances are that you won't advance, while equipment beyond your rank may propel you faster, if you can stomach the cost, that is. Equipment This is everything from the ring itself, to the stage, to pyrotechnics, maybe a Titantron and so on. You pay a 1-time fee for this, and then 10% in maintenance cost every month. Staff Everything from security guards to physicians to the ticket lady, road agents and the ring crew (if you have Dunn and Marcos you'll save 10% :) ) Production Even if you don't have a TV-show or DVD-releases, chances are you will have some sort of technological equipment, be it a microphone or speaker system to play entrance themes for your wrestlers. Marketing This has to do with advertising, be it on the Internet, through TV or radio commercials, or simply printing out colored (or black & white) posters from your computer and posting them at the local shopping mall. Production and Equipment needs to be purchased at the amount listed before the slash, and you pay the number behind the slash each month for maintenance. Marketing and staff only require you to pay the amount listed after the slash, every month. If you for some reason didn't hold a show that month, you don't need to pay anything. A - 600,000 $ / 60,000$ B - 50,000 $ / 5,000$ C - 10,000$ / 1,000$ D - 5,000$ / 500 $ E - 1,500$ / 150 $ F - 500 $ / 50 $ Note In addition to how well your matches fare, there are five non-wrestling elements that dictates how well your show is received. Four of them are listed above (Equipment, Staff, Production and Marketing), and the fifth is announcing. The quality of your announcers (and interviewers) may aid or wreck your show. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 18:16:28 OK, time for a test run. I want to start a new promotion... let's call it TRPW (Test-Run Pro Wrestling). I would like to hold a 16 man tournament to crown the first ever TRPW World Champion. I want to start out as a class D promotion, and roll 1d6x$50,000 for starting money. I roll a 2, meaning that I have $100,000. Here is the roster I have come up with, and the rankings I've assigned each member. The wage is listed in paranthesis, and a total wage bill at the end. D Chris Sabin (500), Chris Kanyon (600), Austin Aries (200), Chad Toland (400), Tank Toland (500) - Total $ 2,200 E Claudio Castagnoli (100), Puma (100), Adam Pearce (200), Sal Rinauro (100), TopGun Talwar (250) - Total $ 750 F Shane Hagadorn (40), Davey Andrews (60), Jay Fury (10), Corvis Fear (10), Lotus (30), Mike Kruel (50), Eric Matlock (20) - Total $ 220 Others I want Lacey - rank D as a valet for Austin Aries (150), and So Cal Val (150) - rank E as valet for the Tolands. I hire two fantasy announcers (both rank D - paid 100 & 300), and Sugar Sean Price as the backstage interviewer (rank E, paid 100). Total cost $ 800 Equipment All my 4 equipment categories are Level D, costing me $ 10,000 as a 1-time fee, and $ 2000 to maintain the first month. Let's see a list of my expenses for the first show/month, if I assume I hold one show a month, and use all workers and non-wrestlers. Wrestler wages: $ 3,170 Non-wrestler wages: $ 800 Maintenance cost: $ 2,000 Investments: $ 10,000 If I use the same workers every time, I will spend $ 5,970 every show. My balance will be ($100,000 - $15,970) $ 84,030 before my first show. Playtest note: My intentions were that most of your workers should be in the same category as the promotion, with a few high-profile stars just above, and a few young, lower-midcarders that is below the circuit's category. I don't feel my current system allows for this, as the only ones at level D right now are Sabin, Kanyon, Aries and the Dicks. I have throughout my ruleset defined level F as Backyard wrestling, but it is clear that none of the level F wrestlers I have hired are backyard wrestlers, although you may not have heard of them. I will probably bump the categories up one rank, so that top Indy stars will be at level C, and the WWE wrestlers will either be in A or B (with the wrestlers fresh out of OVW and the lower midcarders in level C). This will probably double my wage budget, but let's face it, I doubt Jay Fury is paid 10 bucks a show... :P Note I have updated my original post about the wrestler categories. |
| Zedja | Posted on 03/09/06 at 18:21:42On 03/09/06 at 16:46:34, rey619 wrote:Those are good suggestions Zedja, I was unsure at first if storyline no-shows should be included, but I'll think I'll put them on the list.I'm actually going to use that last one sometime in my federation. Just don't know when ;) |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 18:23:35On 03/09/06 at 18:21:42, Zedja wrote:Any chance that will be before the Women's Title Match? :P |
| Zedja | Posted on 03/09/06 at 19:59:39 I don't use any women. Not anymore. My federation went on a diet so to speak ;) |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 20:58:39 Arena OK, so you have started your own federations, hired wrestlers and managers, bought equipment and paid maintenance. It's time for you to pick a venue to hold the show. There are seven different sizes to pick from. Tiny It's darn cheap, but you won't draw many people either. Maybe it's in the gym of the local elementary school, a small pub or in your own living room. Cost: $ 50 Capacity: 50 Small Most lower indy's will use these venues to hold their shows. High school gyms, banquet halls or bigger pubs. Cost: $ 200 Capacity: 500 Medium College gyms, national guard armory's, lodges and the like can host a good number of people, but it will also cost you a pretty penny. Cost: $ 1000 Capacity: 1000 Large Bigger promotions use these small sports arenas to hold their house show and some TV-shows when the times are tough. Cost: $10,000 Capacity: 5000 Huge These large sports arenas will most likely be used for flagship TV shows and smaller Pay-per-views. Cost: $30,000 Capacity: 10000 Gargantuan Large sports arena such as these are exclusively used to hold large pay-per-views and supershows, and only the really rich circuits can hope to rent one more than a handful of times a year. Cost: $60,000 Capacity: 25000 Colossal These are the largest sports arenas in the world, and if your circuit is rich enough to rent one, and can pull off close to a crowded arena, you truly are the champion of wrestling. Think Pontiac Silverdome and Hulk Hogan slamming Andre the Giant. Cost: $250,000 Capacity: 100000 Note While not directly linked to the A-F system I have introduced (well.. stolen from TEW anyway), it will be important to size up your circuit before choosing a venue. Even if a level D promotion gets lucky with its initial assets, and end up affording a Gargantuan venue, your not likely to draw a much bigger crowd than if you were holding it in a Small venue. Having 200 people in a 25000 arena is pretty sad... and expensive. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 21:17:24 The Marketing Stat As I mentioned earlier, the Marketing stat will be important, as a keener eye for marketing means you will target the right crowd, market and venue for your style of wrestling. On the opposite end, a miss here might mean less crowd. You probably don't want to bring a woman's fed to Philly, for example. Every time you are to hold a show, you will first figure out how large your base crowd is (I haven't figured out that one yet.. I'm just posting whatever idea that pops up in my head). After you have determined the base crowd, roll 3d6 (three normal dies), and check your Marketing stat against this table. 1's and 6's are rerolled and added (6's) or deducted (1's) to the results. Result was: 14 or more points lower than your stat: +75% 11-13 points lower than your stat: +50% 7-10 points lower than your stat: +25% 2-6 points lower than your stat: +10% From 1 point lower to 3 points higher: 0% 4-7 points higher than your stat: -10% 8-10 points higher than your stat: -25% 11-12 points higher than your stat: -50% 13 or more points higher than your stat: -75% Example My marketing skill in the test game with TRPW is 6. For the first show, I roll 3d6 and get the result of 11 (4, 5, 2). Checking the table, I see I missed somewhat, and that I lost 10% of my base crowd. If I had rolled 5, 1 and 4, I would have to re-roll the 1. I roll another 1, and then 2. The result is (5+1+4)-(1+2) 7. The reason why the 1's and 6's are re-rolled every time they come up is to prevent a low Marketing stat (like mine) to always come up with a bad market, and to allow for misses even though you are a marketing genius. I need some help with how to establish a base crowd. Should I use a default for each venue? Roll percentile dice? Have match rating or wrestler heat influence how many people show up? |
| Crpls | Posted on 03/09/06 at 21:24:40 I would guess that large buildings such as the Silver Dome and the like cost way more than $250,000. Rumors suggest that the Tokyo Dome costs ~ $2,000,000 for a show, for example. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 21:27:40On 03/09/06 at 21:24:40, Crpls wrote:I would guess that large buildings such as the Silver Dome and the like cost way more than $250,000. Rumors suggest that the Tokyo Dome costs ~ $2,000,000 for a show, for example.Noted, I wasn't too happy with my price estimates for the venues. I'll probably bump up the two biggest categories to $250,000 and $1,000,000... maybe more.. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 21:32:46 Love these ideas and am excited to try and impliment them into my already existing circuit. What do you have in mind for MAKING money? This is a major issue because like you stated match ratings are not a good idea. Granted my fed as good wrestlers like AJ Styles, and Samoa joe and I can hammer out decent ratings, but New Jack is my champ right now... I would love a good idea for making money. Also another thing is I know the financials are for per show basis, but I'd like to know what you have in mind for contracted wrestlers. After you release these two things I think I can get started. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/09/06 at 22:25:57 Earlier you were talking about using the HEAT/Who's HOT or not rankings. THis might be the best thing to do. This could get very confusing, and maybe too detailed..but work off of this initial concept for me :) My idea was to start everyone with a 5 in Heat as you hire them. I think this can be done with the tweak circuit plug in. This way everyone starts out with a clean slate. You run your fed the way you want. After a card you check the heat of each performer that was on the show. If you had 14 guys on the show you average the heat rating of the show times 1 roll of the 6 sided dice. Give you a number, then add some 0's based on the A-F theory. Example. My March Madness show had 20 workers The average heat is the TOTAL heat number...say EVERYONE got a 10 just to make it easy ...200/ number of workers my heat was a 10 for the card X the Dice roll..say I rolled a 3. So I made a number of 30. Now depending on the size of your fed A-F you should be able to add 0's. A circuit adds 5 0's B Circuit adds 4 0's C 3 0's D 2 0's I imagine my USWA fed as a national company so for my March Madness show I made 300,000 That to me SEEMS simple. Plenty of things can be added to that. Merchandise bonus, DVD sales bonus or something. My biggest concern on this system is the fact that the dice roll even if it comes up 6's and you have major heat value, it still might not be enough cash to keep your major circuit running with all the maintenace. What would happen is you'd have a WWE circuit running with MAJOR stars ...at the Natonal Guard and Armory to cut costs :). I suggest using a 12 sided virtual dice for this. This way you can boost profits. By no means do I have this system figured out. Please add to it or change it. Just wondering what everyone thinks. This is what I imagine will happen with the game... If you have a wrestler with MAJOR HEAT he could attract the crowd and earn you a better average, so a guy like new jack who isn't going to give you good ratings might be able to have a 10 in heat, This way RANKINGS don't effect the profit at all. You could push cheaper workers to increase heat rankings. The more you use these people in your fed, the more important they should become to your storyline, in turn the more money you will build by not using major names. To kinda even this out I had an idea of giving out a raise or bonus to anyone who wins a title in your fed. This way if you start out with Jay Lethal and you're paying him D money. If he wins your heavyweight title, he will be making E money or his D money contract X Dice roll bonus..something like that maybe? Depends how detailed you want to get with this system. Just like how we have a vaule A-F of FREE AGENT wrestlers. The Value of the wrestlers could change WITHIN the circuit. EX: If you are a national company. You bring in Goldberg and you're paying him A money and he constantly feuds with Chris Hero. Hero is going to eventually be elevated. Hero will be working your main event He should be getting a roster bonus. I figure once a lower level guy wins a heavyweight title, he should be put into a new financial bracket. This does 2 things. It elevates guys in your fed, and once they become to expensive, you might have to move on, or keeping him in the company. I mean Shawn Michaels in 1986 wasn't making anywhere near what he was making in 1998. The other thing I like about this idea is what I like to call the "HHH" Factor. If me, as booker LOVES using Too Cold Scorpio (which I do) and his heat STINKS..I still might want to jam him down everyones throat. I could give him the title, and he might have a heat of 2 keeping me from making money, but hey thats where I want my storyline to go. Good example is this WWE situation. Giving the title to Edge boosted ratings, but WWE wants the Cena HHH feud at Mania. They might have made more sticking Edge at the top, but they choose not to. This system gives you that same kind of opportunity. You can also hit a homerun with the Steve Austin type deal. He's HOT IN your Fed and you want to push him to the sky. Why do you all think? |
| Anubis | Posted on 03/09/06 at 23:48:28 This sounds like an interesting way to insert micro-management into TNM. It seems pretty sound so far. The best thing to do is to just keep playtesting the numbers. I've done this in D&D and Tibia now. Basically, don't even run cards while you're doing this. Just imagine various numbers in your head that would work and run with it. That said, I also think you should switch Ric Flair and John Cena as far as wage categories go, as Flair is still a much bigger draw than Cena. Actually, you shouldn't even categorize these people, because over time, things change. AJ Styles could one day become the next top guy in the world, for instance. I'd use their starting pushes. This would, of course, require a lot of editting at the start, but that's fine. Like maybe A would be a push of 91-100, B could be 71-90, C could be 51-70, D could be 31-50, E could be 11-30, and F could be 1-10. Like that. Then you'd say, give The Rock a 100, and he'd be a class A worker, but someone like Shane Hagadorn would have a 10 and be a class F worker. Like that. Of course this works best in a booked circuit, but for randomized circuits, promoters can just edit the workers "in-circuit push". Aside from that, everything else seems pretty solid at first glance. Any which way, this kinda stuff is really hard to come up with. To be honest, I'm better at taking existing systems and making improvements than I am at coming up with core systems from scratch. |
| Psymin1 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 01:31:37Like maybe A would be a push of 91-100, B could be 71-90, C could be 51-70, D could be 31-50, E could be 11-30, and F could be 1-10. Like that. Then you'd say, give The Rock a 100, and he'd be a class A worker, but someone like Shane Hagadorn would have a 10 and be a class F worker. Like that. Of course this works best in a booked circuit, but for randomized circuits, promoters can just edit the workers "in-circuit push".I really like this idea. I think this would even be EASIER than going by the wrestler's name. I would be able to book them as I would like...but, then again, I suppose it being easier isn't necesarily a good thing...Hmm...I dunno. Well, I guess it is like what Rey said before, if you cheat, you're only cheating yourself, so. Yeah, I like this idea a lot, Brandon. I like this idea a lot, also Sean. I think this would be a great way of adding in the "making money" part of the game. The only problem I have is that I wish we had a way to do it w/o needing to have TweakCirc (unless, of course, I am having a brain fart, and that is one of the free plugins), simply because not everyone has that. Ok, so, almost everyone does, but us cheap asses/poor asses that don't are going to get screwed =). That's my two sense. I really like the ideas, and I'll be interested to see what Rey decides to go with. ~Branden |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 07:00:15On 03/09/06 at 23:48:28, Anubis wrote:That said, I also think you should switch Ric Flair and John Cena as far as wage categories go, as Flair is still a much bigger draw than CenaPlacing wrestlers into categories is something I'll leave for the bookers, these were just rough guidelines. And as you pointed out, wrestlers may change wage category. Whenever a contract renewal is coming up, the booker must decide if the worker in question has moved up or down in the wage categories. I thought about using pushes as well, but bear in mind that push is circuit-relative. Take Christian for example, he was probably pushed around 85 in WWE, and 100 in TNA. Besides, do anyone really use push values below 50? There are some very helpful ideas out here now, I'll look into it when I come back from work. |
| HugeRockStar760 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 07:04:40 I'm still holding out hope that Oliver will one day program TNM Gold, but I doubt this is possible. So thanks for attempts at something similar. I'm starting to learn Visual Basic.net, so who knows, maybe one day I'll program something like this....Eh, I doubt it. Thanks for the virtual dice link too...I don't even know where any dice would be around here. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 08:20:10 If the virtual dice is something people wouldn't mind using, I'll take a look on the die rolls and probably change it to a different dice. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 08:45:39 Sean: Your idea intrigues me. The reason why I haven't delved too far into the profit section is because I'm not sure how detailed I want it. Do I want several factors influencing the outcome? Do I want to calculate crowd size, ticket money, merchandise, DVD-sales, etc? Or do I want one single roll defining all income for one show? The conclusion is both, possibly. I'll make one simple version for those who'd like to keep it easy, and one advanced version for those who like micro management (and loves to throw dice). Your idea makes a lot of sense for the simple version of the profit section. Let's see how this goes for my test-circuit. After my first show, Sabin, Aries and Castagnoli has risen to Heat 6. The rest still got Heat 5. My average heat rating is therefore (6*3 + 5*14) / 17 = 5,176. I roll a virtual D12, lucky me, rolled an 11! This gives me an income of $ 5693. My expenses were as we remember $ 5970. If we add the cost of a Small arena ($200), we end up with $6170. So, on my first show, I lost $477. This is despite the fact that I rolled an 11, but is certainly a good result for the very first show. I can easily picture a profit-making promotion as soon as the wrestlers gain more heat. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 10:03:42 A good point Anubis. To use this method, you'll probably need to create an overness stat for all your workers, and push them relative to your circuit. A John Walters vs Colt Cabana match would probably be a good match in real-life, but would stink ratings-wise if their push is at around 30. I might put in these rules as a suggestion on how to categorize your wrestlers, but I'll stick to my initial plan that it is up to you how to categorize them. I will not simulate everything on a level that TEW does, and I don't think checking the Heat of 20-30 wrestlers every show is that time-consuming. I know that TEW will do a thousand times better job at simulating the promotional part of wrestling, but where TEW falls completely through is the lack of a match simulator. It simply isn't exciting enough. Not to speak of the fact that the people creating the real life exports are way off on most things. I mean, I tried starting the game with Shimmer, but I will go bankrupt pretty soon because Dave Prazak is making 8000 bucks a month, and I can't fire him as he is the owner. The advantage of RPG rules over computer plug-ins are that you can use whatever rules you want or change them as you please. Computer software have one common denominator that turns me off... it has limitations. That being said, I have been contacted by someone who did express an interest in making a plugin out of it, so it's definetely an option. |
| Anubis | Posted on 03/10/06 at 10:37:05 Hmmm . . . Actually, I don't think Push affects the ratings. It's been a while, but I seem to recall Work Rate and Charisma being the important stats. At least I seem to recall getting proper match ratings even when the workers had a low Push. I think the only thing Push is for is to help determine the outcome of non-booked matches. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that being the way it worked. If you wanna test it, put two workers with 100 Work Rate and Charisma and 0 Push and maximum heat against each other in a 20-minute gimmick match, booked. It should come out to at least **** if I'm right. Like I said, it's been a while, so I'm pulling this from memory. Either way, I'd expect people to up the Circuit Push upon hiring people anyway. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 10:40:27 I seem to remember several influential posters on the boards claiming that push affects rating. The reasoning was that the more your're pushed, the more people care about you, and therefore the match rating will get higher. I'll simulate your theory when I come home, unless someone beats me to it and can present their findings. |
| Snabbit888 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 15:20:01 Yeah. I can't remember the exact math for it, but push has just as big a factor as stuff like workrate, stamina, and charisma. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 16:55:55 OK, I tried out Anubis' theory, and even though I only tried two examples, I must say he has a valid point, push doesn't seem to affect rating. First, I simmed a card with two matches. American Dragon vs Chris Benoit, and Stacey Keibler vs Stephanie McMahon. All had 100 push. The woman's match got a -1/4*, while AmDrag and Benoit got ****. Then, I simmed a card where everyone had a push of 5. To my surprise, the woman's match only worsened to -*, and AmDrag and Benoit actually got better, ****1/4 to be exact. Both matches were booked to end with the same winner, same finisher at the same time. |
| StoneC0ld | Posted on 03/10/06 at 19:18:41On 03/10/06 at 07:04:40, HugeRockStar760 wrote:I'm still holding out hope that Oliver will one day program TNM Gold, but I doubt this is possible. So thanks for attempts at something similar. I'm starting to learn Visual Basic.net, so who knows, maybe one day I'll program something like this....Eh, I doubt it.I've thought of coding a financial management/backoffice simulation on several occasions, and have even gone as far as creating some frontend screens in Visual Basic 6 and even got a wrestler hiring system coded.... Maybe I'll revive that project sometime.... |
| Psymin1 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 20:43:28 What the hell is TNM Gold all about? Never heard of this before. ~Branden |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 21:46:24 I'm close to finishing the Simple Rules of my project, I'll probably post it tomorrow. It will consist of my rules for calculating worker cost and maintenance, and Sean's rules for determining income. You will only have 1 income post, though, which will determine all revenue from tickets, dvd-sales, tv-deals, ppv's and so forth. Stats will not be used in the simple version. In order to advance a size category, you will need at least half of your equipment to be in the next size category (announcers, equipment, production, marketing, staff and wrestlers). Unless you have all 6 at the new level, you will receive a penalty on your income roll. In order for your wrestler category to be at the new level, you'll need at least half of your roster at the new level or higher. I will write a more clarified and detailed post tomorrow, just wanted to share my thoughts. Sean, I want to thank you for the simple but brilliant idea for making income. It is perfect. However, I would like to formulate some advanced rules as well. It's one thing your system doesn't allow for, and that is something I would like to call the Lance Storm-syndrome (just because I'm watching Steel Cage Warfare right now). When Lance Storm made an appearance in Manhattan, the crowd went ballistic. When he is to fight Bryan Danielson, he will probably draw a huge crowd, and the DVD sales will probably be bigger than usual. Still, his charisma is pretty low, so he probably won't help RoH make more money if they had been using my system. I will probably "fix" this in the simple rules by tweaking the heat for bigger names. Every step a wrestler is above the promotion, his starting heat is tweaked by 1 point. Same goes if he's below the promotion size. This way, Lance Storm gets a head start before the RoH fans discover that he's boring... ok.. If I can be serious for a minute.. creating these rules have been great fun, and your positive and helpful feedback has been very welcome. I hope those of you who choose to use my rules will bring me feedback on how it goes. Be my playtesters so to speak. As my examples showed, Circuit Size D promotions is probably quite realistic, but I haven't tried this system with a Level A promotion yet.. maybe it doesn't work as well there? Again, thanks! Oh, TNM Gold is a legend. It goes that one day, the great Oliver Copp will create the über-ultimate wrestling sim, which will be windows-based, incorporate all the good aspects of TEW with TNM, and usher in a new era of wrestling simulators. It's just a legend though.. ;D |
| HugeRockStar760 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 22:31:00 Say I want to run a WWE circuit (or just using one brand for example). Would every wrestler be considered either an A or B type wrestler as far as pay scale is concerned? There would seem to be a considerable difference between what Funaki makes and what Triple H makes. And has monthly contracts been discussed? This would be the next easiest way to computer salaries next to yearly contracts. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 22:47:42On 03/10/06 at 22:31:00, HugeRockStar760 wrote:Would every wrestler be considered either an A or B type wrestler as far as pay scale is concerned? There would seem to be a considerable difference between what Funaki makes and what Triple H makes.No, openers/jobbers and maybe even lower midcarders would be in the C category. I know I haven't discussed it yet, but I will create a table for that as well. I will try to balance it so that if your promotion holds 3 or more shows a month, it is most cost-efficient to have monthly salaries. I probably need to tweak monthly maintenance costs due to this. I think WWE pays a whole lot more setting up rings and equipment when they're holding 9+ shows a month, than, let's say RoH with 2-5 shows a month. I haven't given it much thought, though. I should probably try and playtest with a size A fed, as I think most people would be inclined to play one. What do you think the max wage should be for a category A wrestler? $100,000 a month? |
| HugeRockStar760 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 23:43:33On 03/10/06 at 22:47:42, rey619 wrote:Hard to say what a max wage would be. $100,000 X 12 months = $1,200,000. That's a lot of money, but I would think a Triple H has to be making like $4 million a year. I guess certain incentives could also be included in your rules. Because incentives could be based on how many four or five star matches someone puts on, or how much merchandise they sale, etc. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/10/06 at 23:59:46On 03/10/06 at 23:43:33, HugeRockStar760 wrote:I guess certain incentives could also be included in your rules. Because incentives could be based on how many four or five star matches someone puts on, or how much merchandise they sale, etc.I think that's a topic I will need to address when I decide to go for the Advanced rules, really. Also, what's the point of hiring someone to written contracts of $100,000 a month, when you can have them on ppa contracts, and even though you max out the dice roll, you can still use them like 15 times a month and still pay less than on a written. Maybe I need to boost the contracts a little, at least in the upper categories. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 00:34:41 "When Lance Storm made an appearance in Manhattan, the crowd went ballistic. When he is to fight Bryan Danielson, he will probably draw a huge crowd, and the DVD sales will probably be bigger than usual. Still, his charisma is pretty low, so he probably won't help RoH make more money if they had been using my system. " Rey I think that is a good idea. There is one test I think we should perform before you add this idea. I am under the impression the higher someone is PUSHED the Faster their heat rises. BUT Your idea of the additional heat point would work for the cheap pop of a 1 show appearance or something like that. I do have issues with paying an B class talent a 6,000 appearance (if the dice roll that high) and actually HURTING your average. Either way try that test let me see what happends. I will be out of town until WEDNESDAY, but check on my fed, and in my comments at the MARCH MADDNESS card which will be posted later, I am going to start breaking down my financials. I gave everyone a dollar amount yesterday. I JUST hired Goldberg before this system went into effect, but got him at $3,000 per appearance. I would be interested in the advanced rules. P.S. to the guy who posted about checking everyones HEAT rating after every card would be a lot of work...my answer is...implimenting this system in general is a lot of work, so if you wanted to use it, it's just something that has to be done. |
| SeanH529 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 00:39:25On 03/10/06 at 22:31:00, HugeRockStar760 wrote:Say I want to run a WWE circuit (or just using one brand for example). Would every wrestler be considered either an A or B type wrestler as far as pay scale is concerned? There would seem to be a considerable difference between what Funaki makes and what Triple H makes.My guess is all your TOP DRAWS are A. your midcard is B. Anyone NEW you bring in I would put at C, and then as the heat factors change, you adjust. For Monthly, it hasn't been discussed but I would assume you take your pay per appearance and just multiply by how many shows you run a month. If you check my fed I was running like 5 shows a month. So if Goldberg was making $3,000 per show thats $15,000 a month= $180,000 a year...and thats a LOW dice roll. The highest someone would be paid in my fed is $360000 and you know the cream of the crop are making more than that. |
| Anubis | Posted on 03/11/06 at 01:28:31 I would actually place WWE's jobbers in category D. Anyway, to elaborate on match ratings, I also don't recall Stamina being a factor. I could be wrong, but here is what I believe each stat does: Work Rate: Directly affects match ratings. Push: Used to determine winners of non-booked matches, carrying even more weight in doing so when strict pushes are in place. Stamina: This is used to determine how much "health" a worker has. You can turn on an option to see a percentage during matches that indicates how much "health" a worker has left. Once they hit 0, the match rating may start to suffer, although I'm not certain on that point. Other than that, I think this is a second factor in determining winners of non-booked matches, but only if strict pushes aren't in place. Charisma: Determines how fast a worker can gain heat and also has a secondary effect on match ratings. I think that's the basics of what the four stats do. |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 01:42:27On 03/11/06 at 00:34:41, SeanH529 wrote:Either way try that test let me see what happends.Well, I looked into my TNA circuit too see if it could yield any answer, and I'm not too sure it did. I have currently 4 guys on the Hotlist - AJ Styles (100), Chris Sabin (90), Bobby Roode (90) and Matt Bentley (95). What they do have in common though, are some great matches ratingwise and failed interference from heel managers or run-ins. It doesn't help my test that Jeff Jarrett has a push of 100, and has been involved in a 5-star match, but still has only 6 heat, despite a 95 in Charisma. On the flipside, Jerry Lynn has an 88 charisma, had some OK (3 stars) matches on Impact and a small midcard feud with Elix Skipper, but still has a 7 heat. It would be really nice if someone who for a certainty knew how this worked could help us out here, cause I couldn't find a clear answer to it. Anubis: Reading the manual, I'm pretty sure I think Charisma has an impact on match rating. It didn't say anything about Stamina or Push though, or what affects match rating at all. I have always found that interference, especially failed interference helps match ratings, while dq's and countouts are very detrimental to it. |
| kurropt_antagonist | Posted on 03/11/06 at 16:53:49 Rey must be pretty lucky to have referees who work for free. :p |
| rey619 | Posted on 03/11/06 at 19:27:41 I had thought about that, but I think I will put them in the Staff section, unless you guys think they need separate wages. |