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Superstrong Wrestlers

ZedjaPosted on 08/01/05 at 08:02:40

Have anyone noticed that even with an equal push a certain wrestler almost always come out on top.

Iceberg, is one of these wrestlers... It's very rare for him to lose a match and in tournaments he usually finish in the top 4.

What makes a wrestler perticularly strong and almost unbeatable?

What other wrestlers act like that in your circuits??
UnrightPosted on 08/01/05 at 14:40:16

Unbooked, La Parka was always had massive winning streaks in my feds.


On the flip side there are also wrestlers who normally do well who for some reason sink like a stone to the bottom of the ratings. Bret Hart was always like this. Lately though John Cena can't win a match to save his life. Neither can Batista.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/01/05 at 20:23:36

In unbooked circuits, there are indeed some exports that are ridiculously strong.  Trent Acid comes immediately to my mind as one example of this.

This is because of several factors.  First and most obviously, "Hard to Pin," "Rarely Submits," "Never Submits," "No-Sells," and "Hulks Up" all make wrestler tougher to defeat.  All of these are common in monster heels, etc.  Hulks Up should probably be a staple of most charismatic main event babyfaces in WWE if you want them to do well.

Second, some wrestlers have lots of high damage moves in their movesets.  An export whose moveset consists of mostly high damage submissions, high flying moves, and strong powermoves is very tough to defeat.  Many WWE wrestler exports (such as Chris Benoit) are not structured in this way, but instead are set up to include 5-10 different low-impact striking attacks.  Including kicks to the knee and the like may be accurate, but in an unbooked circuit he will do poorly against wrestlers with a higher proportion of high-damage moves.

Another factor is the ease with which the export's Finisher and Finisher Like moves can trigger.  If you have an export who can do their finisher out of the ropes, after a setup move, and as a cross-corner move, they'll do better than one who only goes for their finisher when their opponent is in peril.  Furthermore, setting your finisher-like move as one that can trigger easily (for example, as the only move that effects opponents on the mat or as the second move in a move-series) can also increase the strength of your export.

Finally, having a finisher-like move that always results in a pin-attempt makes your wrestler at least 20-30% stronger, especially with a small moveset.

For example, La Parka is a very strong export because his finisher-like move is a powerslam, which both gives an automatic pin attempt and triggers very easily (powerslams frequently trigger against running opponents.)  Iceberg is almost unbeatable because I believe he's hard to pin, plus his finisher can be hit out of the ropes and his finisher-like move (a senton) is one of his only ground attacks, plus I believe it always results in a pin-attempt.  Trent Acid is powerful because he has an arsenal full of high-damage moves and a finisher that triggers a lot.  And so on.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
phudjiePosted on 08/04/05 at 00:37:01

.....I think another eason here is that alot of exports going around have unreasonably high pushes, I had a match with mystery opponents that turned out to be Jack Evans vs. Hulk Hogan, Jack Evans won, but his push was 92 compared to Hogan's 100, however, this Jack Evans (whom I didn't even know who he was) had his movelist filled with high damage cruiserweight type moves compared to Hogan's punches and kicks.
.....I did some looking around and found out that Jack Evans was a lower to midcard ROH guy, there is no way his push should have been 92, it should have been closer to 42.


.....and oh yeah - Bret Hart can't win match to save his life in my fed either.....
Magister369Posted on 08/04/05 at 17:22:14

didnt there used to be push guidlines posted in the forum somewhere. I think there should be a guidline
made, in this way when you are making exports
if you are making a mid-carder he shouldnt get a 95 push.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/04/05 at 21:43:36

Jack Evans is probably one of the most "over" wrestlers in Ring of Honor, and at the moment is also arguably the most insane and exciting High Flier in North America.

That said, to be accurate by ROH standards his push would probably be somewhere between 80-85.  He's DEFINATELY not Lower Midcard, but I'd say he hasn't quite cracked the upper midcard either.

The problem with scaling everyone's pushes according to their spot in the industry rather than their spot in their main promotion is that if you're running an indy-type fed, none of your wrestlers will get significantly over due to the crowd not perceiving them as important - in essence guys with a push of 40-50 or thereabouts are seen by the crowd as jobbers.

But yes.  Push inflation seems to be quite common in non-official export files.  I solve the problem by always editing pushes in my circuits to the level I want them at.  It only takes a few minutes.  It's definately better than the old problem of workrate inflation, which was rampant a couple years back, and which could only be corrected by manually adjusting everyone in the main database.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
UnrightPosted on 08/05/05 at 04:34:25

On 08/04/05 at 21:43:36, Critic of the Dawn wrote:The problem with scaling everyone's pushes according to their spot in the industry rather than their spot in their main promotion is that if you're running an indy-type fed, none of your wrestlers will get significantly over due to the crowd not perceiving them as important - in essence guys with a push of 40-50 or thereabouts are seen by the crowd as jobbers.
Really? The Who's Hot and Who's Not list is influenced by push?

Why is that? I mean, has TNM learned nothing from the lesson of Mulkeymania??
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/05/05 at 08:04:41

Wrestler heat is influenced by push to a degree, yes.  As I said, matches containing wrestlers with very low pushes are viewed as less important by the fans.  Thus, they tend to get lower star ratings.  And because the wrestlers are perceived by the fans as less important, it takes more for them to get behind wrestlers.  Charisma is a much more important factor, granted.  

To see this in the real world, you need look no further than Stevie Richards, Val Venis, and Al Snow.  All of these guys are fairly charismatic and capable of putting on good matches, but because they aren't pushed much, for the most part the crowd doesn't care about them.

Scaling pushes according to the industry rather than your own promotion would make it very difficult to have good matches or get wrestlers significantly over if the weren't under WWE contract.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/05/05 at 10:07:06

The WHWN list isn't directly influenced by push values but by crowd heat during matches... and that is very well influenced by pushes.
ZedjaPosted on 08/05/05 at 12:14:31

How does the heat work really? I mean I know that a heel with a 9 for heat is a good thing, but how about faces? Is a 9 good there too or is it the 1?
Snabbit888Posted on 08/05/05 at 12:21:57

The higher the number, the more over the wrestler is, whether heel or face.  Thus 10 = good, 1 = bad
ZedjaPosted on 08/05/05 at 12:43:01

That's what I thought.. Thanks.