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How to make wrestling fun again...

Snabbit888Posted on 12/01/04 at 16:08:16

On the TNM mailing list, Oliver mentioned about discussing ways to make wrestling fun again.  Although I don't seem to find wrestling to be quite in the rut that many others do (it's no boom, mind you, but I'm entertained), but I figured I'd get the ball rolling with this discussion.

My suggestion for making wrestling fun again, at least in the TNM community, is a bigger emphasis on user-run circuits.  A lot of people don't like the current status of wrestling?  Fine: encourage them to show what they'd rather see.  I know we have the circuits forum on here, but still many of the circuits will get what, 20 page views and that's that?  Hrm... perhaps a more prominent location off the main page, or some more competitions.  Maybe a Best User Circuit Award for the Year-End Awards?
Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/01/04 at 18:21:04

I've got my Ring of Honor, which is doing wonders to keep me interested in Wrestling these days since WWE is in something of a slump.  It's good to be a fan in Philly, because our location in the center of the DC/New Jersey/New York/Boston area makes us a natural mecca for great indie wrestling.

I like the idea of a Best User Circuit thing in the TNM Year End awards quite a bit.  I'd certainly vote there.

As for making Wrestling more fun in general...  Two things have to happen.  

First, some competition at the national level has to appear again to encourage everyone involved to pull out all the stops.  

And second, WWE has to finally give up on the whole "Attitude" formula.  For a while having overbooked finishes and huge swerves fairly often was entertaining, but that formula is well past its shelflife.  When you almost never give the fans a decisive ending in an important match and instead have someone run in and screw the babyface to start a new feud, eventually fans realize that the storylines they're seeing, no matter how good (and lately in WWE it's been mediocre at best), there won't be a real resolution.  When you only give main event feuds decisive finishes for Wrestlemania, it takes away some of the magic of wrestling by limiting the number of special moments to one or two a year.

When was the last time something happened in WWE that made you go "Wow!  That was special!" or "I can't believe they did that!  What's going to happen next?"  The last one I can think of was Benoit winning the Title at Wrestlemania XX.

In summary, WWE needs competition to thrive, and they need to greatly reduce the outside interference and screwjob endings to the point that when it happens, it's something big.  Having Triple H or JBL or any other heel of the month repeatedly getting away with elaborate distractions which allow other wrestlers to give them a major advantage just makes everything feel like a badly written soap opera rather than a sport.  And it'd be so easy to fix.  Just have either Vince or the GM's announce that any cases of outside interference will result in a one month suspension for both the interferer and the wrestler they interfere for, plus any titles held by either wrestler will be stripped.  And... boom!  If someone interferes, it actually means something.

Just my opinion, of course.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/02/04 at 00:58:40

Ta heck with stripping the title.  Just invoke the Von Erich World Class rule, where if a champion is counted out or disqualified, the lose the title to their opponent.  

Of course the biggest problem I see with this is that the referees would actually have to invoke some order back into matches instead of the tired, worn out, and way overused ECW style of letting EVERYTHING go during matches.

I think WWE showed just how out of touch they are, when JR was poking fun at how "exciting" a no countout match would have been with Jericho and Christian a few months ago.  The match is only as exciting as the participants AND the announcers make it for the fans.  By JR effectively pissing all over that type of match, it makes it VERY watered down, to the point, where that match now has zero credibility in the eyes of Good Ol' JR and all of his supporters.

I think in order to make WWE more enjoyable, one has to look at removing JR completely from TV, dropping the attitude era logo and developing a new one, as well as a complete and total revamped look for BOTH shows, as RAW's is still similar to the look that it had back in 1996, and Smackdown has changed very little from it's inception.  And stay the hell away from the 6 sided ring of death from TNA.  It should only be used as a couple times a year type of gimmick so it's importance is greater.  

When asking about "fun" with wrestling, WWE obviously doesn't "get it", since they released Rico, which was one of their greatest characters and a very fan friendly, personable talent.

I think in order to bring fun back, you have to take strides to go back to presenting characters and angles that are easy to follow, as well as actually finished with a big pay off at a PPV.  And it wouldn't hurt to have a squash match a week on RAW to help build some of the younger talents, while utilizing some of the local indy wrestlers from whereever the show is coming from.  One doesn't have to look back to far in history to see RVD beating Jeff Hardy in a squash on RAW.

And speaking of history, acknowledge and embrace it.  They really need to do this with the storylines.  Most writers must have attention deficit disorder, and then think fans do to, when they forget important aspects of a wrestler's past that were hyped and then all but forgotten in the upcoming weeks.  Wrestling fans in general are not stupid, and by thinking so, you are not only insulting their intelligence, but killing off future generations of fans by saying "we don't care about our product, and why should you??"

I'd kinda like to see a Vince McMahon type of personality return to the announce booth.  And on top of that, instead of having "promos" where a wrestler grabs the house microphone and just meaninglessly talks for 15 minutes, have an announcer feed them questions and cut the time given to 5 minutes, freeing up more time for wrestling.

Speaking of more time for wrestling, stop wasting my wrestling program time with utter BS like the Diva search and Tough Enough.  If I wanted to see some green talents, I'd go to see an OVW or UPW show.  Of course, in doing so, I'd probably actually see a WRESTLING show and not the craptastic stuff WWE constantly puts out.  For example, this past Monday, I watched (not really watched, as I had the TV on, but was doing some other work with it on in the background, and only came back to watch when the wrestling came back on) some 20+ minutes of NON-wrestling BS with the Orton and "new" divas (aka the ones that LOST the Diva Search).   The time wasted on this could have been given to some of the wrestlers that have been relegated to Velocity and Heat instead we get Randy's quest for a woman.  Talk about crapping on your own product.  As Arn Anderson was noted for saying, "the name on the marquee says wrestling".  What WWE has been putting out lately seems to be anything BUT wrestling, and now with the Rock's success in Hollywood, and Triple H's impending success with his movie, along with WWE Films features with John Cena and Kane in them, WWE seems to be moving away from the ONE thing that brought them to the dance and into other ventures that hopefully won't be as big a monetary failure as the XFL was.

(author's disclosure: I am a shareholder of WWE stock)
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/02/04 at 01:06:50

And one other point that I forgot...

I have made wrestling fun again for myself by NOT reading online "news sites" or spoilers for the shows.  I tend to have a MUCH more enjoyable time watching from a mark's perspective than from being "in on it" perspective.

I've been watching this way since about mid-summer and the shows are WAY more enjoyable not knowing what is going to happen next, and playing the "second-guessing" game while watching, instead of knowing what is coming next and ruining the surprise of the show.
rey619Posted on 12/02/04 at 01:42:42

I agree, not knowing what will happen makes a major difference, at least when watching WWE. If I'm watching TNA (they way it used to be, not now any more), ROH and other indies, I watch it for the athleticism, which can be quite impressive. If I watch WWE, I watch it to see how easily I can predict storylines and matches. It's really only to see how good you are at understanding the mechanics, the drives and the motives of sports entertainment. And that can be quite fun... to predict outcomes of show..

Now, I don't know if I agree with the whole "heels-cannot-cheat-thing".. that's what makes heels heels... If nobody cheated or had interference, the amount of heel heat would be very little, and that is important in Sports Entertainment.. JBL has become one of the most (un)popular heel champions in years because of this, and I applaud WWE for JBL, no matter what his in-ring abilities are.

I also agree that crap like Tough Enough, Diva Search, Thanksgiving specials and the like should be cut.. we could probably have had 2 medium sized, or 3 short matches last SD if it hadn't been for friggin Tough Enough and Big Show's Thanksgiving. I mean, it's bad enough that Tough Enough uses like 20 minutes of SD time, but in the second half, they have a 10 minute re-run!! And this is just weeks prior to Armageddon.. how are you able to build feuds? I cannot really see how WWE makes money out of this. They're giving away a million dollars.. where does the cost-efficiency thing come in, someone please tell me??

I used to love TNA back in the old "weekly ppv days", you know.. just been watching Lynn vs Styles vs Low Ki in a triple ladder match.. those were the days.. what have we now? Short squash matches and ancient reliquies like Hall and Nash.. makes me sad.. so, I think I 'll shell out some bucks for RoH tapes.. that might just make my day! But hey, you guys are American.. change the audience!! Make them enjoy wrestling, not crap TV!!! Cause it's really the audience fault, you know.. if nobody liked diva search or tough enough.. WWE wouldn't have had it..
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/02/04 at 02:09:00

From a Rick Steamboat interview with Mike Mooneyham:

"There were so many. When Flair and I were given our instructions in the locker room by the agent, he'd say, "OK, you guys are going broadway tonight." And we'd say, "OK, this is the finish we want." And then we'd walk away. I'd go back to my locker, and one of the guys would always ask me, "Aren't you going to go over anything? You guys are going to be out there for an hour." No, we listen to the fans, and use psychology and stuff. That's one of the problems today. They'll line everything up from A to Z. It doesn't matter what the fans are saying. Many times in the course of a match with Flair, we may do something, and get a hell of a pop out of the fans from it, and then we'll take it from there and go in that direction. Why cut out the response from the fans and go on with what you've laid out, and as the match gets deeper and deeper, it just flattens out. You have to take things that happen in the course of a match that were not planned, and go in that direction. A lot of guys plot the match from A to Z, and someone deviates from the script, the other guy gets confused. You miss one step for a high spot, and it gets messed up. I've seen it where the whole rest of the match is messed up."

I think Steamboat sums it up fairly well.  Too many guy don't understand how to work the fans during a match and would rather pre-plan every move of a match, pretty much killing any chance of actually getting a feel for what the FANS want to see.
Oliver CoppPosted on 12/02/04 at 16:52:27

On 12/01/04 at 18:21:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:When was the last time something happened in WWE that made you go "Wow! That was special!" or "I can't believe they did that! What's going to happen next?" The last one I can think of was Benoit winning the Title at Wrestlemania XX.
Contrary to most people in wrestling, I don't think exploiting the Angle-Puder "shootfight" would have been a good idea. If you open that can of worms, while the style likely would catch on, you would have to be very careful not to end up like New Japan where they overloaded on the shooters to the point nobody cared about the wrestlers *or* the shooters anymore.

Judging from the way Puder is getting over, they should do a match between the two... but only to have something *different*, not to start a new trend.

And yes, ever since Eddie and Benoit embraced at WMXX, there hasn't been anything that got me even remotely excited about WWE. Nothing. Zilch.
Oliver CoppPosted on 12/02/04 at 16:54:50

On 12/02/04 at 00:58:40, Rick Garrard wrote:When asking about "fun" with wrestling, WWE obviously doesn't "get it", since they released Rico, which was one of their greatest characters and a very fan friendly, personable talent.
I absolutely agree. Rico was one of the guys who held house shows together. I have seen very few good house show matches over the past several years, and Rico's were always strong - and he connected with the people there despite being depushed so often.

A great wrestler and a wonderful human being... I guess that doesn't make you qualified for a career in the "big leagues" anymore.

Most of the people cut were dead weight but in the case of Rico, I just couldn't have disagreed more.
TerryFunkaPosted on 12/02/04 at 17:52:11

I have to agree, they keep Val I am too horny for national tv Venis and hire everyone in the diva search thing but fire Rico?
ggazooPosted on 12/02/04 at 21:57:31

I'm going to do something really crazy here... I'm actually going to give Triple H credit. The main storylines on Raw have been revolving around the World Heavyweight Title, and that's how it should be. HHH understands that it's wrestling first.

Actually, when it comes to the two shows, Raw seems to be light years ahead of Smackdown these days. I'm actually enjoying the whole GM angle, and the triple threat match last week was good booking IMO, even if we all know that HHH is going to walk out next Monday with the belt because "there was no clear winner".

But as far as making wrestling better, I really like the idea of a "Best Circuit Award." I think that we need to find out just how many circuits ther are out there. Some awards could be:

- Best Circuit
- Best Circuit Website
- Most Original Circuit

... and so on.
rey619Posted on 12/03/04 at 09:21:10

On 12/02/04 at 21:57:31, ggazoo wrote: I'm actually enjoying the whole GM angle, and the triple threat match last week was good booking IMO, even if we all know that HHH is going to walk out next Monday with the belt because "there was no clear winner".
What was great about it? The fact that they screwed up the finish so bad that anything but giving the belt to Edge would be shades of the Montreal Screwjob? If they give the belt to Triple H after this I'll never ever watch RAW again.. I swear.. at least for a couple of months..
Snabbit888Posted on 12/03/04 at 15:51:07

A match is going to come from it.  And it was great because it was actually a cliffhanger.  You know, an entire angle wasn't started and finished on the same night for once, which is good.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/03/04 at 16:57:47

On 12/02/04 at 01:42:42, rey619 wrote:Now, I don't know if I agree with the whole "heels-cannot-cheat-thing".. that's what makes heels heels... If nobody cheated or had interference, the amount of heel heat would be very little, and that is important in Sports Entertainment.. JBL has become one of the most (un)popular heel champions in years because of this, and I applaud WWE for JBL, no matter what his in-ring abilities are.  
I'm not implying that heels shouldn't be able to cheat.  They should.  It's one of the things that makes them heels.  It just shouldn't be treated as such a given that they will, and there should be some repercussions if they're caught.  If you add a suspension angle every now and then, and maybe even strip a midcard heel champion to make the point, a heel getting away with, say, hitting his opponent with a sledgehammer would be a much bigger deal.

If the heel cheats in every big match and gets away with it, it doesn't mean anything.  It's just the status quo.  If it's a little more rare, on the other hand, it's an outrage.

For example, Ring of Honor had something like 2 cases of outside interference in its first 6 months.  The first time it happened, the wrestler who was interfered for (Quiet Storm, I believe) got royally pissed off that the interferer (Brian XL) would do what he did, cursed him out, and told him to leave.  The second time, one of the top up and comers in the promotion (Xavier) turned heel and joined Chris Daniels' Prophecy to huge heat - and all Daniels did was distract the Champion (Low Ki) long enough for Xavier to ambush him and get the advantage with a foreign object.  The crowd was furious simply because it was something that almost never happened, and greeted the new Champion with a chorus of "You sold out!" chants.  Keep in mind that this was a Philadelphia crowd, and we've been known to cheer the heels in wrestling from time to time.

My point is that WWE badly needs a bit of moderation in its use of cheap endings.  If they happen in most major matches, they become a fact of life rather than an outrage.  There are heel tactics that can be used short of outrageous interference, after all.  Eye rakes, low blows, and the like all convey heelishness and don't give the whole match a massive screwjob feel to it.  There's a place for screwjobs and interference, it's just that WWE relies on them as a major crutch to protect its top wrestlers.  American Dragon, for instance, loses about half of his Ring of Honor matches despite being one of their top 3 or 4 stars, but he's always been a believable main eventer because his matches are always competitive and he's such a believable wrestler in the same vein as Chris Benoit.  In effect, it's similar to the point that Rick made about the proposed No Countout match on Raw.  The only reason interference and screwjob finishes are meaningless in WWE is because WWE doesn't give them any special meaning.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
rey619Posted on 12/03/04 at 20:18:43

On 12/03/04 at 15:51:07, Snabbit888 wrote:A match is going to come from it.  And it was great because it was actually a cliffhanger.  You know, an entire angle wasn't started and finished on the same night for once, which is good.
It would have been good if not for the fact that Edge/or the ref screwed it up so badly that anyone with a VCR and the slow motion function can see that Benoit was pinned before Edge even considered tapping out.  I've just had it with WWE you know.. they did the battle royal draw again! They advertised for a battle royal for the World Title which they didn't go through (which was good in one way), and will probably end up giving the title back to Triple H, even though he wasn't involved in the finish.

Critic: I might just start watching RoH.. I'm fed up with WWE and TNA...  :P
Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/03/04 at 21:01:55

Ring of Honor seems to be very tightly booked for the most part, and their wrestling is consistantly excellent.  However, it requires much more of an investment to watch than WWE or TNA because it doesn't have a TV show.  If you live in the Northeast or Chicago, it's definately worth attending some shows live.  If not, they've had just over 50 shows since their founding in 2002, and most of them are available on DVD.  $20ish will buy you a PPV quality show (albeit with poor production values compared to WWE - that really bothers some people), and I haven't been dissappointed yet.

If you're outside of ROH's area there may be some quality indie feds in your region that you should check out.  I hear that PWG in Southern California is very good, for instance.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Snabbit888Posted on 12/03/04 at 21:33:02

Maybe it's me, but in the replays I saw Edge tap at the two count.  So it's obviously not as obvious as you think, because I thought it looked fine. :)
Oliver CoppPosted on 12/03/04 at 22:23:04

On 12/03/04 at 21:01:55, Critic of the Dawn wrote:Ring of Honor seems to be very tightly booked for the most part, and their wrestling is consistantly excellent. However, it requires much more of an investment to watch than WWE or TNA because it doesn't have a TV show.
And to be honest, it's easier to book an ROH-style promotion if you don't have to churn out four hours of TV a week plus one to two PPVs a month.

Not to knock ROH, but their schedule is a long way away from having the pressure to put out several hours of material weekly... and it shows. I seriously doubt Gabe Sapolsky would be able to keep up the high standard of the promotion in a less relaxed environment.

Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/03/04 at 23:14:51

You do have a point, Oliver.  That's entirely true.  Since ROH only typically puts on 6-12 hours of wrestling a month (TNA does about 11, WWE does about 45, assuming a 4 week month), there's plenty of time for them to put together something that actually makes a good amount of sense.  With a stricter schedule (weekly TV tapings plus monthly PPVs), it's quite likely that Gabe would have trouble producing the quality of stuff he does now.

That said, due to the size of Ring of Honor and its status as just an indy fed (albeit the second largest in the US after TNA), booking is probably more difficult than one might initially imagine, because shows have to be booked around the schedules of wrestlers who also work TNA and in Japan.  Punk vs. Joe II, for example, was originally supposed to be Joe defending against Corino, but Corino backed out literally several days before the show due to a series of untimely injuries in Zero-One.  The match was changed at the last minute, produced what Meltzer (I believe) called the first ***** match in North American since 1997, and built to a highly anticipated rematch that's actually going to occur tomorrow night.  Since the first two matches were 60 minute time limit draws, the third meeting has been booked as a No-Time Limit Match... and it's probably one of the most eagerly anticipated gimmick matches since ROH's founding.

The point I'm making is that while Gabe may very well not be able to handle fast pace of WWE's hectic schedule, it doesn't really matter to the fans because what he does book is usually very well done.

That raises an interesting thought, actually.  Would WWE be able to produce a better product if their TV and PPV time as a whole was reduced?  And would doing so actually make financial sense?

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/04/04 at 02:45:55

On 12/03/04 at 21:33:02, Snabbit888 wrote:Maybe it's me, but in the replays I saw Edge tap at the two count. So it's obviously not as obvious as you think, because I thought it looked fine. :)
I dunno.. my screen went all wonky at that very moment.  And even on the VCP replay.. it does the same.  And I bet if I had TiVo, it would go all wonky too.  I must have the Bobby Heenan version of the bad monitor.  ;)
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/04/04 at 03:08:29

On 12/03/04 at 16:57:47, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
I'm not implying that heels shouldn't be able to cheat. They should. It's one of the things that makes them heels. It just shouldn't be treated as such a given that they will, and there should be some repercussions if they're caught. If you add a suspension angle every now and then, and maybe even strip a midcard heel champion to make the point, a heel getting away with, say, hitting his opponent with a sledgehammer would be a much bigger deal.
Exactly what I was trying to get at... but didn't flat out spell it out.

If the heel cheats in every big match and gets away with it, it doesn't mean anything. It's just the status quo. If it's a little more rare, on the other hand, it's an outrage.
Exactly my point.  This is SORELY lacking thanks to the ECW-style that EVERYONE uses in today's wrestling.

For example, Ring of Honor had something like 2 cases of outside interference in its first 6 months. The first time it happened, the wrestler who was interfered for (Quiet Storm, I believe) got royally pissed off that the interferer (Brian XL) would do what he did, cursed him out, and told him to leave. The second time, one of the top up and comers in the promotion (Xavier) turned heel and joined Chris Daniels' Prophecy to huge heat - and all Daniels did was distract the Champion (Low Ki) long enough for Xavier to ambush him and get the advantage with a foreign object. The crowd was furious simply because it was something that almost never happened, and greeted the new Champion with a chorus of "You sold out!" chants. Keep in mind that this was a Philadelphia crowd, and we've been known to cheer the heels in wrestling from time to time.
And for that to happen from a Philly crowd, goes to show that if you set a certain standard by conditioning the fans to what is the normal for your promotion, then when someone out of the normal parameters happens, it's MAJOR news.  Unfortunately... what used to be considered outside the parameters, happens SO often in WWE, that it's now considered the norm... and that if a major match in the WWE wouldn't end in a screw job type of ending it would be the shocking situation.

My point is that WWE badly needs a bit of moderation in its use of cheap endings. If they happen in most major matches, they become a fact of life rather than an outrage. There are heel tactics that can be used short of outrageous interference, after all. Eye rakes, low blows, and the like all convey heelishness and don't give the whole match a massive screwjob feel to it. There's a place for screwjobs and interference, it's just that WWE relies on them as a major crutch to protect its top wrestlers. American Dragon, for instance, loses about half of his Ring of Honor matches despite being one of their top 3 or 4 stars, but he's always been a believable main eventer because his matches are always competitive and he's such a believable wrestler in the same vein as Chris Benoit. In effect, it's similar to the point that Rick made about the proposed No Countout match on Raw. The only reason interference and screwjob finishes are meaningless in WWE is because WWE doesn't give them any special meaning.
Bingo ..  we have a winner!  Eric... you've got it nailed on the head.  :)   WWE really seems to just be mailing things in instead of working hard and busting thier collective asses.  And with the latest news of Heyman being gone from the SD creative team yet again in favor Brother Love Bruce Prichard, WWE couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat, they are so far off course.  Then again.. I think it's cause Heyman probably wants to take the title off JBL, who is apparently one of Vince's "boys", while we all know Bruce will keep it on JBL as an asskissing ploy to keep his job.
rey619Posted on 12/04/04 at 04:47:25

On 12/03/04 at 21:33:02, Snabbit888 wrote:Maybe it's me, but in the replays I saw Edge tap at the two count. So it's obviously not as obvious as you think, because I thought it looked fine. :)
OK, the thing is, I don't have a VCR, so when all of this starting popping up at wrestleview.com and stuff, I just had to take it for granted.. that they blew it.. then I downloaded the show, and the fact is.. I see Edge tapping out just before the 3-count... so it really is a great ending... I am really sorry for expressing my opinion based on second hand sources... but I still will be angry when they give the belt back to Triple H...
rey619Posted on 12/04/04 at 04:50:52

On 12/03/04 at 21:01:55, Critic of the Dawn wrote:

If you're outside of ROH's area there may be some quality indie feds in your region that you should check out. I hear that PWG in Southern California is very good, for instance.
I do live quite a bit away from ROH area.. I live in UK/Norway for the moment.. so it'll be DVD's for me  ;D
Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/04/04 at 06:06:25

Heh.  That would make it difficult to pop down to the Rexplex for any given show (although some dedicated British fans do make trips out).  It might be more practical to check out FWA, which is the top British Promotion.  It's not exactly huge, but it's got some excellent talent like Doug Williams and I've heard good things.

Don't think that'd help much in Norway, though.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
blslivewirePosted on 12/04/04 at 11:45:37

I think a simple answer to make wrestling fun again is just plain competion. Nothing makes a product better than competition. Even in WCW's dying days they still kept McMahon on his toes because he knew if he slacked off, the fans he took from them would go back in a second. And although ECW was never a major threat to the WWF, it's uniqe style and edge and loyal following  woke mainstream wrestling up from it's coma.

Just think about it: if GM, Toyata, Dodge, Nissa & Honda all went out business today, how hard do you think Ford would have to try?


Speaking of competition, can anyone recomend a ROH DVD for me? Or if there's another promotion closer to the old ECW style please let me know. I was a huge ECW fan and haven't enjoyed wrestling much since it folded.  To be honest, I haven't watched any wrestling at all since the last Wrestlemania.

I think a simple answer to make wrestling fun again
Snabbit888Posted on 12/04/04 at 14:53:11

I think the question Oliver was posing though was how can we, the fans, make wrestling more enjoyable for ourselves?  Sure, competition would lead to better product, but unless there's a secret billionaire lurking on the forums, we're not going to be able to make that happen.  I can barely pay my rent, let alone make competition to WWE.

Wait, I know!  Anubis can do it!  Now we're talking!  Outbook, Vince, Noobie! :)
91Posted on 12/04/04 at 15:40:33

On 12/04/04 at 14:53:11, Snabbit888 wrote:

Wait, I know! Anubis can do it! Now we're talking! Outbook, Vince, Noobie! :)
It doesn't make sense - Anubis can outbook Vince, yet Vince has been stealing his ideas for years. Is he saying he can outbook himself?
91Posted on 12/04/04 at 15:43:50

Oh, and to answer the question, old shows keep my enjoyment sky high. I just purchased every episode of SNME for a little old school stuff, and I could keep watching this kind of thing for hours.

And you know, knowing me, in ten years time, I'll be looking back in fondness at some rare Tyson Tomko matches or a Jon Heidenreich promo.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 12/04/04 at 16:07:03

On 12/04/04 at 11:45:37, blslivewire wrote:
Speaking of competition, can anyone recomend a ROH DVD for me? Or if there's another promotion closer to the old ECW style please let me know. I was a huge ECW fan and haven't enjoyed wrestling much since it folded. To be honest, I haven't watched any wrestling at all since the last Wrestlemania.

I think a simple answer to make wrestling fun again
I can make a couple suggestions. If you're interested in starting from the beginning, The Era of Honor Begins is fantastic and features a main event which has to be in the top two Triple Threat Matches I've ever seen (the other being Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit at Wrestlemania XX). That's what I'm doing personally.

The disadvantage to this is that it doesn't really give you a look at the modern ROH roster and storylines, so if you're going to attend live events you may be lost at first. I believe ROH reccomends that new fans who want to see the current stuff start at the ROH Reborn shows, as much of the current direction in storylines started there because TNA yanked AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels, two of ROH's top three or four names.

ROH is generally great stuff with a good mix of wrestling styles, but if you're looking for an outright hardcore style CZW might appeal more to you. I'm personally not big on the whole deathmatch thing, which is kind of funny since my favorite wrestler ever is Foley.

And you know, knowing me, in ten years time, I'll be looking back in fondness at some rare Tyson Tomko matches or a Jon Heidenreich promo.
GRUNT GRUNT I LIKE YOUR POETRY!

GRUNT GRUNT I LIKE WHAT YOU DO TO BABIES!

GRRR!

GRAAAAR!

GRRR!

GRAAAAR!

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
zackarcherPosted on 12/04/04 at 18:10:42

I have to throw in my two cents.  I recently caved and bought the two Weekend of Thunder shows.  I'm only half way through day one but I'm really loving it.  Seriously considering a road trip to Philly sometime in 2005 for a show.
TerryFunkaPosted on 12/04/04 at 19:23:02

You're forgetting the death before dishonor and do or die shows, gives you some sampling of names you may not know as well as established names
blslivewirePosted on 12/05/04 at 04:14:05

Thanks for the recommendations. While you're re-educating me on the world of wrestling. Can anyone give me whereabouts of some of the old ECW alumni who aren't currently working for teh WWE? Ones like Shane Douglas, Francine, Roadkill, Super Crazy, Chris Candido, Tammy, Danny Doring, Simon Dianmond, Swinger, New Jack, Sabu, Terry Funk etc.
Snabbit888Posted on 12/05/04 at 04:33:44

I'll probably need some corrections here, but here's what I got:

Shane Douglas is with TNA.  I don't watch/follow TNA *TOO* closely, but I'm under the impression he's like a backstage interviewer now.

Simon Diamond is also with TNA, wrestling as "Irish" Pat Kenney.  I believe he's currently being repackaged (he could very well be back now, but eh)

Sabu was with TNA, but I believe he's injured right now with a fairly serious back injury.  One of those "got worse over the years" injuries.

New Jack had some run-ins with the law in Jacksonville that I won't relay completely, but there's an entire thread dedicated to it in the US Independents forum (see, Fun with New Jack)

Chris Candido and Tammy are still doing indy stuff.  Tammy has put on a lot of weight, but my understanding is that she's clean now, so that's good.

That's all I got.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 12/05/04 at 08:48:28

I'm glad she's kicked the habit, but being a Sunny fan back in the day, it's hard to look at recent pictures of her.  Doesn't even seem like the same person.  Oh well, getting off drugs is more important.

It's just a shame.  She pretty much started the whole Diva fad, and everyone else is just following in her footsteps.

rey619Posted on 12/05/04 at 09:11:07

Johnny Swinger is also in TNA, tagging with Glen GIlbertti (aka Disco Inferon) in New York Connection, with Trinity as valet
zackarcherPosted on 12/05/04 at 22:44:39

From what I read, Sabu got some virus that they're not sure where from.  Scott D'Amore, from TNA is putting together a tribute show in Michigan with a bunch of TNA guys to help pay for his bills.

Balls Mahoney was recently in Puerto Rico, working with Carlito and his brother.
Rick GarrardPosted on 12/05/04 at 23:06:41

And Carlito (Carly for those reading WWC results), isn't even the better brother of this generation of the Colon family.  His brother Eddie is much better than he is in the ring.  And Carly isn't all that bad.  I just hope he gets some Carribean justice on Hardcore Holly for the shoulder seperation.
TerryFunkaPosted on 12/05/04 at 23:41:05

Carlito Cool vs Hardcore Holly in a Apple on the Pole match. Who smells ratings with that one.
Oliver CoppPosted on 12/07/04 at 15:24:16

Actually, I have to say I'm very impressed with Carly. He was the least over guy in OVW, was straddled with a poor man's version of Razor Ramon and took the ball and ran with it.

I hate to say it but this has to be the first time in a long time that WWE might have a future superstar on their hands... barring injury.

And no, being matched up with Bob Holly wouldn't be the best idea to get Carlito over more ;-)

I wonder how the "other" Colon would have done with the gimmick.

It's pretty sad overall, though, when the only thing to look forward to at the moment in the official launch of the 24/7 project. Speaks volumes about the state of wrestling.
91Posted on 12/07/04 at 19:30:16

What speaks volumes is that I went to vote on the awards and realised I'd need some serious thought. Sure, something like best wrestler is easy enough - you've got your Benoits and your Angles, your Styles and your Williams, but when you get onto stuff like best PPV, best angle etc etc, there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of choice. Give me time on this one...
SuperstarJimiCPosted on 12/07/04 at 23:47:27

You forgot some other ECW alumnai that's not currently working with WWE in some capacity.

1) The Sandman
2) Raven
3) Justin Credible
4) Perry Saturn
5) Mikey Whipwreck

Oh yeah, Simon Diamond is currently in NWA-TNA as Irish Pat Kenney, he has been repackaged. He made this gimmick debut at the Victory Road PPV last month & he wrestled at Turning Point PPV this past Sunday. He is now known as "THE EMPIRE SAINT" Pat Kenney.
Oliver CoppPosted on 12/11/04 at 11:03:06

"Irish" Pat Kenney... this gimmick is *so* out of the 70s...
blslivewirePosted on 12/11/04 at 11:11:22

On 12/07/04 at 23:47:27, SuperstarJimiC wrote:You forgot some other ECW alumnai that's not currently working with WWE in some capacity.

1) The Sandman
2) Raven
3) Justin Credible
4) Perry Saturn
5) Mikey Whipwreck

Oh yeah, Simon Diamond is currently in NWA-TNA as Irish Pat Kenney, he has been repackaged. He made this gimmick debut at the Victory Road PPV last month & he wrestled at Turning Point PPV this past Sunday. He is now known as "THE EMPIRE SAINT" Pat Kenney.
I did forget about those, though I do not Raven is in TNA. I also left out Jerry Lynn & Roadkill. Any ideas? And wasn't Simon Diamond engaged to Dawn Marie?
SuperstarJimiCPosted on 12/11/04 at 22:15:23

I don't know about the whereabouts of Roadkill, but Jerry Lynn is still in TNA, he's right now recovering from a torn rotator cuff in which he had surgery on. He is still I believe another 2 to 3 months away from returning.
MowiePosted on 01/04/05 at 22:04:01

You know, when I was young I could only watch wrestling on sunday mornings, and often bought wrestling magazines to see what happened in the world I was missing.  I didn't think as I was getting older, that my love of wrestling would make me hate what I see now a days, or maybe back then I just wasn't old enough to see what was really going on.  Having been a Sting fan forever, I started getting annoyed when they wasted his contract near the end, and he could only make appearances.  Now I get to watch 3 or 4 wrestling shows a week, and I barely even turn around to see what's going on with them.  Triple H might be the best heel on the microphone, but in the ppv's I've seen he's put on a pitiful performance.  I guess ever since the Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart match, I've not only been able to almost always predict outcomes, but have actually gotten annoyed by them.  I remember feuds lasting for months if not years, and ppv's were something special, not a weekly event.  If wrestling wants to get back to interesting and getting fans excited, put a lot more thought into stuff and quit making everything cut and dry.  I mean when you have someone who's contract is up so they get "injured" for 3 months they come back and have one fight with the guy who they hate with a passion, then it's all over.  This isn't wrestling, it's a 1 time mini-series where you have to wait for the last episode for 90 days and forget the plot :)  Also they need to come up with "real" faces, not everyone being neutral or a heel.  It's like nobody knows how to just go wrestle and win anymore.  Stables were great when there was a few and they were different, but to many have been made in a similar fashion and are unstoppable for way to long.  I mean come on, 4 guys join together and beatup the league...logic states the league would gang up and beatup the 4 guys.  I guess it's my age coming through that it takes more to impress me now, but you would think someone in the wrestling world would be able to do it.

Mowie
91Posted on 01/04/05 at 22:41:11

The thing is, as much as many long time fans clamour for things to be like the old days, wrestling can NEVER go back. For it to flourish big again, someone (one would assume the WWE) needs to find a whole new direction again, much like they did with the Hulkamania era and the Attitude era.
Snabbit888Posted on 01/05/05 at 00:35:14

The thing is, like 91 said, it's not ever going to be the same.  Things aren't as simple as good guy versus bad guy anymore, nor should they be.  There can be elements of that, but for as much as we like Hulk Hogan now for nostalgia and the like, if a new character debuted with a similar philosophy to "saying your prayers and eating your vitamins," it would just be hokey and stupid.  It's the same reason why shows like Leave It To Beaver and The Brady Bunch are no more.  Times change.
MowiePosted on 01/05/05 at 01:12:43

You don't like the brady bunch?

:P

Mowie
Snabbit888Posted on 01/05/05 at 01:19:17

Heh, I appreciate the Brady Bunch.  Don't turn this on me!

:)
Rick GarrardPosted on 01/05/05 at 21:02:43

With the way the FCC is heading, we're about to see the return to married couples on television sleeping in separate beds in the same bedroom.  You want hokie.. that's hokie.
Oliver CoppPosted on 01/06/05 at 16:36:48

Actually, after Hulkamania, New Generation and Attitude, maybe the next peak could be caused by listening to the audience and giving them what they want.

Now there's a novel concept for ya ;)
91Posted on 01/06/05 at 19:47:16

Well, we HAVE just had the recent TNM awards...
Rick GarrardPosted on 01/07/05 at 01:25:45

And Benoit has proven time and time again not to be a hot ticket seller when in the championship seat.  Perhaps they can give him the WCW Title and ship him to the new developmental territory with Bill Behrens.. in Atlanta?
Captain TagonPosted on 01/07/05 at 07:01:59

I dunno, I think bringing back true faces and heels would go a long way to actually making wrestling more interesting again. Makes it much easier to get fully and emotionally behind someone when you know for sure you are supposed to and they aren't doing little things that make you want to boo them as well. I forgot exactly who said it but I thought it was a good comment:

Characters don't bring people in, storylines bring people in. You can have two 2D characters in an amazing storyline and it wall draw over two fully realized characters in a shoddy storyline.
Snabbit888Posted on 01/07/05 at 07:06:31

So you're telling me that if you did the Austin/McMahon angle exactly the way it happened, but replaced Austin with TL Hopper and McMahon with Damien DeMento, it would have gotten over the same?
americamamushiPosted on 01/07/05 at 07:37:54

That begs the question: Does the character make the storyline? Or the storyline make the character.  Both can be true I think. On one hand, a storyline has the potential to flesh out two 2d characters.  On the other hand, I think you're gonna be more likely to enjoy a crappy story with two guys you love I think.  If you put Goldberg and Jeff Hardy in the greatest storyline in the history of wrestling I still won't enjoy it because I don't care for either wrestler (Anubis, save your guff)  However, if you ran a storyline where Al Snow killed the Great Muta's baby, I'd be more inclined to buy a ticket. ;)
91Posted on 01/07/05 at 19:57:52

On 01/07/05 at 07:06:31, Snabbit888 wrote:So you're telling me that if you did the Austin/McMahon angle exactly the way it happened, but replaced Austin with TL Hopper and McMahon with Damien DeMento, it would have gotten over the same?
That'd be damned entertaining, but not in a "I'm paying money to see this" sort of way.

No, you can have awesome storylines but if nobody entertaining is playing them, nobody will care. On the flip side, moderately bad storylines (as opposed to awful ones mind you) can still be perfectly watchable if the main focal points are, say, The Rock and Kurt Angle.

Actually The Rock is a very good example - he's been in some stupid stuff ("ROCK BOTTOM INTO THE DOG POOP!!!" anyone?) but it's remained terrifically entertaining because he can make any old crap - literally - into something worth watching.

That said, as mamushi said, a good storyline can still turn someone from being 2D into having more dimensions than an episode of Doctor Who, but it really requires at least one guy already over to help out - a perfect example would be when Dean Malenko was presented as a great wrestler with zero charisma (very much NOT the true case, but presentation is everything) who the fans didn't really care about until he feuded with Chris Jericho, at which point he became extremely popular.