FORUM HOME > TNM > Discussion
weight class wizard question

Some GuyPosted on 08/20/04 at 17:29:10

Sounds, like a neat plugin.  One thing come to mind though.

What would happen if we had multiple titles for a single weight class, ie the wwf title and ic title are both heavweight titles. Would a wrestler show up as top contenders for both belts?
Tom_ImpPosted on 08/20/04 at 18:34:07

I don't have an answer to your question, but I wanted to comment on this new plugin without making a whole new thread for it. Sorry.

Anyway, I just got the e-mail about this and I must say I am stoked. This truly ranks up there as one of the best and coolest plugins to date. I will admit the only one I have bought so far is TweakCirc (sorry Oliver), but after reading what this Weight Class Wizard can do, I am seriously considering buying this one as well.

Awesome job Oliver!   :)
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/20/04 at 19:08:37

Tom - no need to apologize. Plugins are only for those that want or need them - that's the idea :)

Some guy - internally, the plugin is programmed to construct the list of top contenders like this:

- up to two champions of "lower" titles of the same weight class (if not available: none or one)
- then there's the rest of the ratings, i.e. people who don't hold titles; first the top contenders for the highest-ranked titles are filled from the ratings, then the secondary and so on.

That's how the group of five is constructed. So: yes, the same wrestler can contend for multiple titles *if* he holds a lower-ranked title.

What do you think? Should the algorithm be configurable by the user (i.e. don't use lower-ranked champions, allow the same challengers to contend for multiple titles etc)?

The reason why I made it the way it is is that it'll make for more variety. What use is it having the same five people contend for all singles titles with only their ranking for the specific title changing?

Comments :)?
AnubisPosted on 08/21/04 at 00:58:23

My only concern is that we have to pay money for yet another plugin.  I know complaining about paying money is generally not welcome, but I can't ignore this anymore.

TNM7 SE is a great program, and I am mostly fine with paying for it despite already owning TNM7 FE.  SE can easily be considered an "expansion", and you usually pay money for those.  No problem.

I do, however, have concerns about paying for plugins.  Plugins would be more akin to "updates" in any other game, and I can't think of even one game where you have to pay for general updates.  Not one.  Not Neverwinter Nights, not SimCity 4, not Civilization III, not one game in existence do you have to pay for a "plugin".  I should point out that, as great as TNM is (I love it, I really do), it is not as "professionally done" as games such as those mentioned above.  (Please take this for what it is, I say this with all do respect; I give total credit for how great it is, but not being a big company does prevent one from being able to make a big as "big" as those I mentioned above.)

Now, with all that said, despite those facts, TNM7 SE costs as much as those games.  It costs the same as Neverwinter Nights, SimCity 4, and Civilization III.  This is where my complaint comes in.  Once you add in the costs of these plugins, you're paying MORE for TNM7 SE than you are for any of the above games, and the only thing you get is a plugin.  With all due respect, that ain't right.

Now the way a money-making company deals with such things is to only offer these plugins to people who buy the game.  With that said, it seems like the "best" solution is to offer TNM7 FE for free, but make TNM7 SE the "pay version" and make plugins available only to those who've already paid for TNM7 SE.  We're generally very poor people, and if I have to pick between Star Ocean 3 and a TNM7 SE plugin, I know where my money is going, and it'll be to Square/Enix and not Oliver Copp.  (Actually, a better comparison would be choosing between a TNM7 SE plugin and a Blind Guardian CD, in which case Blind Guardian would be getting my money.)  The point is that TNM7 SE can cost the same as a big company's commercial games, but it would be hard to compete with the big names if you charge more for a "lesser" product.  That's why Tibia can't compete with Final Fantasy XI.  Basically, all paying customers who bought TNM7 SE should get all plugins for free because they are merely "updates" and not full-fledged "expansions".

In case you don't like that, though, there IS an alternative that would be acceptable.  Charge ONE price for ALL plugins, like buying a "plugin package".  People who buy TNM7 SE get nothing for free, but for like maybe a grand total of $10-$20, they get a plugin package that allowed them to get any and all plugins that come out that you would have charged money for.

I hope people actually give my words some thought.  This is basic business, not a n00b begging for free stuff.  I paid for TNM7 SE and I paid for TweakCirc and I paid for Interview Integrator.  (I also paid for TNM7 FE.)  I think I've paid more than enough to be able to get these plugins.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/21/04 at 02:52:46

Thank you for your honest and heartfelt comments, Anubis.

I have to say that you do have a point there, and it is something I've also given thought to more than just once.

I do know that nobody likes paying too much for what they perceive as too little. Then again, opinions differ (at least judging from the people I've been in contact with regarding precisely this thing) greatly even among the hardcore TNM user base.

Most people handle it like Tom: get what they personally think and need and skip the rest. Some get every plugin that is released. Some get none at all.

The point I personally don't agree with is that what you are suggesting constitutes "basic business". Basic business means - as an enterpreneur - doing things that net a positive return on your investment. (Please don't take this as patronizing - I'm just trying to establish a line of thought.)

This can mean one of two scenarios:

a) develop side products that help sales of your main product where the increase in sales of the main product more than justifies the time and money invested into the side products - or -
b) develop side products that have a narrow, defined user group which is willing to pay for certain extra features they (and only they) want or need.

Of course, there are also options c) and d) being:

c) give away new developments for free or
d) do not develop new products at all.

I suppose we agree that route d) is not the preferable one. Option c) isn't sound business or even basic business at all.

Also, I'm positive that none of the currently available plugins would sell only one additional copy of TNM 7 SE itself. Of course, your mileage may vary here :). What all do carry is either a significant investment in third-party programs (development libraries such as the ones used for the Windows-based plugins) and/or own code (in the 10,000s of lines of code for most plugins, the only exception being the Interview Integrator).

I like the idea of offering plugin packs that give the user a certain amount of cost control. However, at the same time, this approach doesn't carry any benefit for the developer (=me in this case) because he already received the customer's money and making new products won't make him any extra money. In short, there is no incentive for the developer to go the extra mile.

This is a bind of sorts :)

You know, after TNM 7 (FE) was released, I took a hiatus and development stood still for a number of years until TNM 7 SE rolled around.

I wanted to keep the ball rolling afterwards, a decision which nobody (so far) has been negative about.

Of course I could "simply" add up new features to create a TNM 7 Third Edition but it would take many moons until that beast would be released. With plugins, it's release as you go, meaning both a speed-up in turnaround time as well as in terms of testing etc.

The bottom line is that a program has to be worth the price to the person considering buying it - or he won't buy it. At the same time, it has to be worth the while of the people producing it - or they aren't going to be around in the middle and long runs.

There is a point where - as you said - buying every plugin and the main program isn't cost-effective anymore for the customer.

Conversely, the same can be said for the developer. There is a point where it simply isn't a good investment anymore creating new features for a program when the new features won't bring in any revenue.

Where we might(?) need to get to is a comfort zone which feels good for all parties involved.

As more and more commercial plugins are relased, this discussion was inevitable. I'm open for ideas that are fair to all parties involved.

Any suggestions?
91Posted on 08/21/04 at 03:29:06

If people are willing to pay money for plugins, Ol' will keep charging, and charging as much as people are willing to spend.

Now I don't have the figures at hand, for obvious reasons, but I'm willing to bet that the gross profit (or is it net profit - I failed my accountancy exams) is proof enough to Oliver that he should keep slapping a price tag on every new plugin. In any case, I'm also guessing that Sid Meier is somewhat richer than Oliver Copp.
CarlzillaPosted on 08/21/04 at 04:22:49

It takes time to program things, and given Oliver's track record with quality I don't see anything wrong with him charging a few dollars for things that people want.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/21/04 at 05:06:10

Despite being a poor (recent) college graduate who hasn't landed a steady job yet, I don't mind paying for a plugin every now and then to expand TNM's functionality.  Functionally, there's no real difference in what I get using that method than what would be included in third edition if he released all these new functions at once in a bundle you had to upgrade to.

That said, the number being released lately along with the increased price of plugins is beginning to make it hard to motivate myself to buy many of the new ones.  For example, I've skipped the visualizer plugin entirely, as I initially chose to edit entries by hand and later decided the visualizer itself was distracting and simply turned it off.

There are a number of plugins available that I might be interested in purchasing, but the fact that they are now $7 each means that I find it hard to convince myself to buy any.  It's hard to choose which I want most, and as Anubis said, there are games out there I'd like to try which makes it hard to justify spending $28 on 4 plugins instead.

Therefore, maybe you could do something along the lines of what you did with TNMSE: Offer discounts to those who order more than one plugin at a time.  For example, if I wanted the Database Cleaner, the Special Move Wizard, the Move Wizard, and the Weight Class Wizard, instead of paying $7 each for a total of $28, perhaps you could bump the price down to $5 each for a total of $20 if I ordered them all at once.  This would leave your basic income from new plugins intact while encouraging people who are having trouble with the price to upgrade by offering them a better deal once several plugins they wanted had been released.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/21/04 at 10:57:37

Like I said, I accept the criticism and acknowledge that something should be done to bring things back down to a reasonable level. I'll keep following this thread.

Price-reduced plugin packages have been offered to a group of registered users as a test balloon in the past with no substantial business being generated.

It is an idea that I really like, though.

As far as things working out to a lower average price, I'm absolutely fine with that if a number of plugins were purchased at the same time.

Thanks!
doors11Posted on 08/21/04 at 16:12:39

I Must be for the Old School..

I believe that nothing is for free.When someone works hard on a product(Yes A Plug-In is a product).They deserve to payed something.

This seems to come up all the time in games.Where there is Plug-In's,Add On's or Mods.Title bout Boxing,The Sims,High Heat Baseball,Horse Racing Fantasy and many other games I have.

Sometimes people make a editor for games like The Sims or High Heat Baseball.These might the games bettter.You can edit the game to make it better.Plug-Ins are the same to me.They make the game better.

Not to start trouble here,This is a great Forum.Where everybody helps everbody out.But I just don't understand how people expect something for nothing.
I myself only buy the Plug-Ins that I feel I want.

All the Plug-Ins are made to help make the game even better.I know some of them only make the game easier.

Anyway my 2-cents are that I feel Oliver is entitled to make some money for hours and hours of work on a Plug-In.But I also beieve in that ,Everyone is entiled to their own  veiws.

Just buy the Plug-Ins that you want.Just like a new car.Buy improvements for it that you like.New Wheels,Stereo,Tinted windows etc etc.
adamPosted on 08/22/04 at 00:12:10

I'll make it short and sweet..

If you want the plugin. Do what I do...

Save your pennies :D

Thank you and have a nice day :P
AnubisPosted on 08/22/04 at 04:33:41

Well, coming up with specific ideas is hard for me, only because I don't know how much business you do, Oliver.  I do understand your points about not being motivated if you're not getting paid.

That makes me wonder why all the big games do indeed release all updates for free.  Where is their motivation?  Granted, most are simple bugfixes, but there have been substantial play updates in the games I mentioned before.  I can't honestly figure out the real difference here as I don't work for any of those companies or for you.

As such, it looks like there are good arguments for both sides.  A resolution is difficult to come by.

May I ask a couple questions, Oliver?  If you don't mind.  This would help me (or anyone else who cares) to come up with a suggestion.

1. How much raw time, on average, does it take to make a plugin?

2. How many people, on average, buy any given plugin?

I'm guessing that, in hindsight, the very reason you can't follow the same given rules as a big company is BECAUSE you aren't a big company.  I'm guessing TNM7 SE didn't sell anywhere near a million copies, much less ten million (although I could be wrong).

That said, my only suggestion at this juncture is, honestly, to just lower the price.  It's easy for teenagers to save up for something fun, but it isn't that easy for adults with bills (car payments, insurance, etc.).  If you are able and willing to answer those two questions, I can give you a more "complete" suggestion.

I like to give to the community.  Basically, a balance is what's needed.

If you can't (or won't) give the figures, I'll give you my suggestion now using presumed figures.

If we assume it takes 100 hours to make a plugin, and then we assume that you'll sell about 1000 copies, if you think you should get about $10/hour, you would have to charge $1 for the plugin.  At $7, however, you're estimating your work at about $70/hour. :P

Like I said, accurate figures would help greatly.  Those were (probably inaccurate) guesses.  One big thing is I know I want this plugin, but I also want Star Ocean 3, and a few dollars can actually make all the difference.  (If PS2 games were $60 instead of $50, I wouldn't be so quick to buy them.)
91Posted on 08/22/04 at 16:58:07

Hang on a minute, even with lots bills and loan payments and such, as an adult I have much MUCH more money than I ever did as a child, and I haven't even got a full time job yet. Unless someone got inordinate amounts of pocket money of course...

Besides, what's the point of Oliver charging an amount he thinks will break even? For example, if you had a company making CD's, after all costs had been accounted for and the number of CDs produced was accounted for too, each individual CD might cost, say, $5 to make (they are surprisingly cheap), but they'd be idiots to then only charge $5 back for them. Where's the profit in that?

I know Oliver's a different case with different examples, and he may or may not be able to afford to do $1,000 of work and be willing to make less back (you'd have to ask him) since I think the price he's paid to make everything is in time rather than in money, but still, there's no point him not aiming to make a profit, unless he'd have to charge $80 or something per plugin to break even of course (in which case, be very happy he doesn't try and break even).
Some GuyPosted on 08/22/04 at 18:29:15

On 08/20/04 at 19:08:37, Oliver Copp wrote:Tom - no need to apologize. Plugins are only for those that want or need them - that's the idea :)

Some guy - internally, the plugin is programmed to construct the list of top contenders like this:

- up to two champions of "lower" titles of the same weight class (if not available: none or one)
- then there's the rest of the ratings, i.e. people who don't hold titles; first the top contenders for the highest-ranked titles are filled from the ratings, then the secondary and so on.

That's how the group of five is constructed. So: yes, the same wrestler can contend for multiple titles *if* he holds a lower-ranked title.

What do you think? Should the algorithm be configurable by the user (i.e. don't use lower-ranked champions, allow the same challengers to contend for multiple titles etc)?

The reason why I made it the way it is is that it'll make for more variety. What use is it having the same five people contend for all singles titles with only their ranking for the specific title changing?

Comments :)?
So there would be a seprate list for the world and ic champion, but the ic champ might appear on the world list as well.

That sounds good to me.
Some GuyPosted on 08/22/04 at 18:40:35

As far as pricing, I don't buy TNM because it's the cheapest, i use it because it's the best.

Oliver should charge what he thinks is best for him. I would hate to see work on TNM stopped because oliver can't find the time.

I was thinking the same thing about how much it would cost to get all the plugins, but I can choose to not buy a plugin.  If no plugin's come out, i don't have much of a choice.
AnubisPosted on 08/22/04 at 20:51:23

On 08/22/04 at 16:58:07, 91 wrote:Hang on a minute, even with lots bills and loan payments and such, as an adult I have much MUCH more money than I ever did as a child, and I haven't even got a full time job yet. Unless someone got inordinate amounts of pocket money of course...

Besides, what's the point of Oliver charging an amount he thinks will break even? For example, if you had a company making CD's, after all costs had been accounted for and the number of CDs produced was accounted for too, each individual CD might cost, say, $5 to make (they are surprisingly cheap), but they'd be idiots to then only charge $5 back for them. Where's the profit in that?

I know Oliver's a different case with different examples, and he may or may not be able to afford to do $1,000 of work and be willing to make less back (you'd have to ask him) since I think the price he's paid to make everything is in time rather than in money, but still, there's no point him not aiming to make a profit, unless he'd have to charge $80 or something per plugin to break even of course (in which case, be very happy he doesn't try and break even).
HENCE THE REASON I ASKED.  Geez.
91Posted on 08/22/04 at 21:30:31

On 08/22/04 at 20:51:23, Anubis wrote:

HENCE THE REASON I ASKED. Geez.  >:( >:( >:(
Oh, it's just that...

On 08/22/04 at 04:33:41, Anubis wrote:If we assume it takes 100 hours to make a plugin, and then we assume that you'll sell about 1000 copies, if you think you should get about $10/hour, you would have to charge $1 for the plugin.
Haha, I can see where I might have been wrong to suggest that you said he should aim to break even.

Seriously, rather than getting all stroppy and whatnot, chill out and realise that not everything in life comes cheap and not everyone is going to look at everything with the same viewpoint at you. Geez.  :)
AnubisPosted on 08/23/04 at 02:58:28

Here's another suggestion in case Oliver doesn't want to answer my questions (which could be understandable as it's his private business) . . .

How about making a smaller "update/improvement" to the core product for every major plugin you release? For instance, whenever you make a plugin-worthy feature to be released for sale, you could make a smaller update to the core product for all users. This could help us poorer folk put more money into this. :P

A good example is that, with the Theme Music Wizard you released, you also changed Rewind to make it useful. That's a perfect example.

The idea is that, although you need incentive to keep working on the product, some of us economically-challenged people need incentive to keep putting more and more money into the game.

If you need any ideas of "smaller" updates or whatever, just take a look at the Compiled Wish List I posted with a lot of people's more viable suggestions.

http://www.tnm7.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=wishlist;action=display;num=1090790420

(BIG HINT: A feature to allow wrestlers as managers may well be the easiest of those to implement, and it'd be my personal choice if you were to ask me.)

Personally, I may buy this plugin either which way. If I were to suddenly be able to use wrestlers as managers, though (without the cloning for tag teams who manage each other), I could guarantee 100% that I would buy this plugin. ;)

Does this sound fair?

P.S. One last thing, though . . . Regardless of all other things, I think you should cap out the price of plugins at $7 on the dot. Go any higher than that, and it's not worth the money except to those rich enough to throw money away on a small feature like a plugin. Personally, $5 would be something that could guarantee my business as a rather poor person, but $7 would be on the high end of acceptable if I have a couple extra dollars on-hand.

P.S.S. You would be my hero if you implement the anti-cloning wrestler manager feature.
Tom_ImpPosted on 08/24/04 at 07:14:05

Or the addition of the seperate themes for tag teams made up of singles wrestlers.   ;)
Some GuyPosted on 08/24/04 at 16:36:22

On 08/20/04 at 19:08:37, Oliver Copp wrote:


What do you think? Should the algorithm be configurable by the user (i.e. don't use lower-ranked champions, allow the same challengers to contend for multiple titles etc)?


Comments :)?
i would imagine everyone would have a different idea about how this should work, so the more options the better.
Some GuyPosted on 08/24/04 at 20:45:40

Another idea, have an option to filter out from the ratings tag teams that are not in the tag team database. This way, wrestlers that only team together on occasion aren't figured to the contendership.
The PhantomPosted on 08/25/04 at 15:32:36

I don't have to much to add but here's how I feel.


If plugins were free, would I get them? Oh hell yes! Since they are not, I'll only pay for those that I'll use. I know Oliver spends a lot of time on TNM and I thank him for it. If he only had a small amout of people buying the product or an extremely large amount of people, then I could see him giving away the plugins for free. But he is doing this for your enjoyment and to make some profit.
james_mercurialPosted on 08/28/04 at 02:18:55

i have to say i am salivating at the idea of the weight class wizard! i suggested this awhile ago on the wish list (well, something similar) and i'm looking foward to its release!

i don't know if this has been answered, but can you nominate wrestlers for a certain title, like can you have say a Hardcore Title Ratings or it is only with weights? abd could you have say a Brawl-For-All title (an idea i have toyed with for awhile)  ratings as well? i remember reading that you can have rating for your women's title, but i'm assuming that just goes on whether the female box is ticked in the create a wrestler thing....anyone know?
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/28/04 at 10:54:49

On 08/22/04 at 04:33:41, Anubis wrote:Well, coming up with specific ideas is hard for me, only because I don't know how much business you do, Oliver. I do understand your points about not being motivated if you're not getting paid.

That makes me wonder why all the big games do indeed release all updates for free. Where is their motivation? Granted, most are simple bugfixes, but there have been substantial play updates in the games I mentioned before. I can't honestly figure out the real difference here as I don't work for any of those companies or for you.
With most plugins, you'll be looking at sales of 50-100 copies over the first 12 months. The thing is: with major games, there's a mass audience that you can or can't win over. We're working with a fringe market of a fringe market here. Everybody who is going to buy TNM will buy it on its own merits alone. Adding a few advanced options here and there (which is being done with plugins) won't sway anybody because if you don't like the big picture, adding a few details won't win you over.

The fact of the matter is that most people are very content with the product they bought and don't see a need to get any of the plugins until they get into the product so deep that all of a sudden, they need a specific plugin.

I don't know how to better explain the difference than saying that for major games, there's a market where many different games compete. A great game will get a bigger slice of the pie than a not-so-great game. Hence, there is real competition and a market size which lends itself to competition.

The wrestling simulator market is a very small one, as is evident by the lack of companies even investing their time in the field. There's TNM and there's TEW - that is the extent of the pay market, aside maybe from MDickie's games. And even those two products are diametically opposed on the spectrum of what you can do with wrestling. One is the best management sim around, the other is the only real card simulator around. And still: the market is very small. A small market which is saturated differs from a big market where there's lots of competition for the buck.

There's a difference between shooting for a market having maybe 5,000 customers tops and shooting for a market having 100,000+ customers tops. It changes the economical balance and the decisions you make to keep revenue minus expenses positive.


As such, it looks like there are good arguments for both sides. A resolution is difficult to come by.
Exactly.


1. How much raw time, on average, does it take to make a plugin?
It depends on the plugin. Some, like the Interview Integrator, were easy to make. On the other end of the spectrum, you'll see the more recent plugins which are hell to implement. The Theme Music Wizard took about 11 days at eight hours each, TweakCirc SE clocked in around 25 days, the Database Cleaner at around 30 days (the most of which in this case was testing to make sure nothing is corrupted), the Special Move Wizard was somewhere between TweakCirc and the Database Cleaner, and the latest plugin about to be released, the TNM 7 SE Weight Class Wizard, was 15 days of work.

What you have to remember is that implementing a plugin is just step one. About the same time as implementing it goes into debugging it. Then there's writing the help file and so on. So, when I say 15 days, that's a total number encompassing all three.


2. How many people, on average, buy any given plugin?
100 max.


I'm guessing that, in hindsight, the very reason you can't follow the same given rules as a big company is BECAUSE you aren't a big company. I'm guessing TNM7 SE didn't sell anywhere near a million copies, much less ten million (although I could be wrong).
It hasn't even cracked 10,000 copies yet - TNM 7 FE and SE total. I guess there's still a perception vs reality issue when talking about the wrestling sim market :)


That said, my only suggestion at this juncture is, honestly, to just lower the price. It's easy for teenagers to save up for something fun, but it isn't that easy for adults with bills (car payments, insurance, etc.). If you are able and willing to answer those two questions, I can give you a more "complete" suggestion.
Like I said, I'm very well willing to lower the price per plugin if there's a commitment to more than just one plugin at the same time.


If we assume it takes 100 hours to make a plugin, and then we assume that you'll sell about 1000 copies, if you think you should get about $10/hour, you would have to charge $1 for the plugin. At $7, however, you're estimating your work at about $70/hour. :P
Perception vs reality is all I can say about that :)

Thanks for your input!
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/28/04 at 11:39:43

On 08/22/04 at 18:29:15, Some Guy wrote:

So there would be a seprate list for the world and ic champion, but the ic champ might appear on the world list as well.

That sounds good to me.
Yes, that is precisely the case. The IC title is the secondary title, hence his holder should be in contention for the world title as well, right?
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/28/04 at 11:42:25

On 08/24/04 at 20:45:40, Some Guy wrote:Another idea, have an option to filter out from the ratings tag teams that are not in the tag team database. This way, wrestlers that only team together on occasion aren't figured to the contendership.
Sounds good! I'll put that in there... maybe a filter that triggers on minimum number of total matches, i.e. a team is only added to the ranking after for instance five matches as a team.

Would that do the trick for you?
Chris AllenPosted on 08/30/04 at 04:32:09

Sorry to dredge this back up, but I think people are entirely missing the point.  Despite what has been said over the years, Oliver isn't doing this for the money.  If he were, he'd be crazy, because there's not much money there.  The market for TNM is very small.

You can't blame Oliver at all for charging what he does for plug-ins.  It seems to me that TNM to him is a hobby.  A very time-consuming hobby that has gotten bigger and bigger.  He does it for not only his enjoyment but for the enjoyment of all of us users.  That being said, he can't possibly be expected to devote hours upon hours catering to this community and not be rewarded in some way.  I doubt he even breaks even on these things most of the time -- he's just trying to recoup something for all of the time that he's spent away from his wife and family, away from his job where he could be making real money, and away from the real world.

Personally, I try to buy every TNM plugin that comes out, even if I will very rarely use them.  Why?  I've been part of this community for many years now, and TNM has provided me hours upon hours of enjoyment.  I think Oliver deserves every red cent he can make.

So is $7 too steep for a plugin?  Maybe so, for those of you who are teenagers, or those of you who don't make a whole lot of money.  I've been there lots of times before.  You aren't expected to buy them.  But, in turn, you can't expect to get new features that required lots of time and headaches without having to pay for said time and headaches.  Oliver might be rolling in the dough, but it definitely isn't because of TNM.

So if you want it, find a way to get it.  $7 is just barely more than one meal at a fast-food restaurant.  It's the cost of two rentals at Blockbuster.  It's not even enough gas for a half a tank.  If you still can't afford it, you don't need it... Sorry.
zackarcherPosted on 08/30/04 at 17:24:14

Actually, that is about half a tank for me.  :)
Some GuyPosted on 08/30/04 at 18:44:18

On 08/28/04 at 11:42:25, Oliver Copp wrote:

Sounds good! I'll put that in there... maybe a filter that triggers on minimum number of total matches, i.e. a team is only added to the ranking after for instance five matches as a team.

Would that do the trick for you?
that sounds pretty good.
AnubisPosted on 09/01/04 at 08:08:22

So ~120 hours for ~100 sales.  Damn.  I really never did imagine the market was THAT small.

Wowza.  That means the current prices gets him about minimum wage.  Amazing.

Yeah, I think that e-mail you sent out may be the best idea.
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/01/04 at 08:47:10

I wouldn't overdramatize it ;). I have a good job where I am able to make a living, so I don't depend on the TNM-generated income.

The market has started to improve a bit lately since more people get the packages with plugins lately than just SE alone.

I think it's mostly an awareness issue. If I don't use the program a lot, I won't even be aware of where the plugins will help me and make the program more enjoyable. For recreational users, the base functionality will be more than enough to last their attention span ;)
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/01/04 at 17:15:54

Just wanted to say thank you for implementing the package deal offer in September.  It saves me some money and gives me an incentive to pick up some plugins I probably wouldn't if there weren't the special offer.  I intend to make use of it sooner rather than later.

Thanks again.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/03/04 at 15:22:29

Hey, don't worry about it. You guys made a very reasonable suggestion.
AnubisPosted on 09/04/04 at 00:14:08

I will admit that the package deal won me over.  After looking at all the facts, it's true that charging less across the board just wouldn't make it a reasonable venture.

You did the right thing.  In fact, it was so right I just bought all the plugins I've been wanting recently that I didn't want to spend too much money for.

:)
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/09/04 at 16:13:15

On 08/24/04 at 07:14:05, Tom_Imp wrote:Or the addition of the seperate themes for tag teams made up of singles wrestlers. ;)
... and your wish is my command come October 1 :)

The code currently is in beta testing.