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***** matches?

Snabbit888Posted on 08/30/04 at 06:10:19

Hrm... maybe this is just my paranoia, but I have found it's nearly impossible for me to get a ***** match.  In actuality, the hgihest rating I can seem to get is **** 1/4.  I don't expect to get ***** all the time, but **** 1/4 seems like an odd rating to top off at constantly.  Am I just paranoid and it's a huge coincidence, or does my TNM hate me?
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/30/04 at 06:22:35

You have to meet the right conditions for a ***** star match to happen.  I can tell you in doing BCW and now CW, it's been a a hard fought battle to get a match over ****1/2 And I don't think I've seen one in CW, but BCW did have a few of them.  A 5 star is a rare occurance if you use the default wrestlers from the allwrest file, unless you take all the guys with the high workrates and throw them in a match together.  
Snabbit888Posted on 08/30/04 at 06:25:44

Well, I know they don't happen super often, but I just find it odd that I can never get over **** 1/4.  Of course, I don't try to get *****, that's not how I book, but this has been like a 4 year thing.  I get a lot at **** 1/4, very very few at even **** 1/2.  It's probably just coincidence, but I thought I'd see if anyone else has seen this.
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/30/04 at 06:33:06

I have found that if you tend to go face vs heel with matches and then have rematches with the same guys, their heat will begin to build... and what could have started with a **1/2 match, they may end with a couple *'s value higher later in their feud.  At least that's what I discovered with BCW.  

And now looking back, that's how in one of my really old circuits I was able to get Bam Bam Bigelow and Don Muraco into a ***** match.  I just wish I would have figured out the heel vs face thing sooner.  ;)
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/30/04 at 08:38:44

You basically have to have the right wrestlers (although work rate is one factor, it isn't the only one), the right crowd for these wrestlers, the right match (back and forth, fairly long) and the right finish (clean, preferably hard-hitting) to be able to hit *****.

Like Rick said, having a built-up feud also helps because it takes some time for people to get into a feud, just like IRL.

One common misperception is that if you put two great wrestlers in there, there will automatically be a ***** match, Benoit and Eddie come to mind. Thaet just isn't the case. I've seen those two stink up the joint more than once (although not as in A-Train vs Undertaker stinking but more like in Triple H vs Shawn Michaels HIAC stinking) in matches they didn't think of as important or being on TV.

Also, one thing to consider is the styles two wrestlers compete in (counter in). The higher the compatibility, the better - as a rule of thumb, exceptions to apply - the wrestlers will be able to work together.
91Posted on 08/30/04 at 15:26:39

Yeah, I've noticed the **** 1/4 thing a lot, though I've had my fair share of ***** so I'm not complaining. But why **** 1/4? I've found that anything goes less than 15 minutes never goes any higher than that, at least with me (with one exception of a **** 3/4 than went 14:59).
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/30/04 at 19:14:30

The ratings were patterned after those in the Observer, and 4 1/4* is the cutoff for a regular excellent match there. Everything that goes higher borders on legendary.
91Posted on 08/30/04 at 19:59:17

On 08/30/04 at 08:38:44, Oliver Copp wrote:You basically have to have... the right crowd for these wrestlers...
Wait, is this incorporated into TNM somehow? Explain.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/30/04 at 21:16:45

It is, although the crowd type is determined at the beginning of every card and not dependent on a specific arena.

Some matches play better at times than at others, and you can read how well they are taken by how the crowd reacts to your wrestlers.

Sometimes a crowd is there for technical wrestling, sometimes for brawling. Sometimes they'll crap all over a cheap DQ or CO finish in an important match and will be dead for the next match, other times they'll be more forgiving.
Snabbit888Posted on 08/30/04 at 21:17:20

On 08/30/04 at 19:14:30, Oliver Copp wrote:The ratings were patterned after those in the Observer, and 4 1/4* is the cutoff for a regular excellent match there. Everything that goes higher borders on legendary.
There we go.  That was the answer I was looking for. :)
91Posted on 08/30/04 at 22:25:22

On 08/30/04 at 21:16:45, Oliver Copp wrote:It is, although the crowd type is determined at the beginning of every card.
Randomly?
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/30/04 at 22:47:58

On 08/30/04 at 21:16:45, Oliver Copp wrote:It is, although the crowd type is determined at the beginning of every card and not dependent on a specific arena.

Some matches play better at times than at others, and you can read how well they are taken by how the crowd reacts to your wrestlers.

Sometimes a crowd is there for technical wrestling, sometimes for brawling. Sometimes they'll crap all over a cheap DQ or CO finish in an important match and will be dead for the next match, other times they'll be more forgiving.
I did not know that.  Is that all the types of crowd in the game?  Or are there others too?  In the case of the latter, could you possibly tell us what they all are?

Also, if the type of crowd is determined as you book the card, having some idea of what to expect might be cool.  Not sure if that's practical at all or not, though.

I've noticed something like that, though.  Sometimes heat will skyrocket in armbars and headlocks, while other times it goes up rapidly when wrestlers just start wailing away at each other with punches.  I didn't realize that these were seperate cases, though.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Shadow_MaxxPosted on 08/31/04 at 01:05:04

On 08/30/04 at 21:16:45, Oliver Copp wrote:It is, although the crowd type is determined at the beginning of every card and not dependent on a specific arena.

Some matches play better at times than at others, and you can read how well they are taken by how the crowd reacts to your wrestlers.

Sometimes a crowd is there for technical wrestling, sometimes for brawling. Sometimes they'll crap all over a cheap DQ or CO finish in an important match and will be dead for the next match, other times they'll be more forgiving.
i didn't know that, either. that's actually incredibly cool.
Rick GarrardPosted on 08/31/04 at 06:32:11

Thanks for the explanation Oliver.  It really explains a WHOLE lot about why I get the ratings I and others here get.  :)

Will this info make me change my booking style, probably not.  But it will at least make me appreciate a Philly crowd of bloodlust vs a brawling crowd of Memphis vs a technical crowd of Calgary.
rptDX316Posted on 09/01/04 at 19:41:00

Heh, many moons ago, I got a ***** match between Mankind and Billy Gunn!  I think it was a Mexican Death Match, which went on for quite some time.

Can't really see Mr Ass ever been in a such a high quality match in real life though.
91Posted on 09/01/04 at 21:35:55

I could, if he was teaming with Benoit, Angle, Eddie etc etc etc.
AnubisPosted on 09/03/04 at 01:28:42

One thing I noticed is that the easiest way to get a ***** match is to make the match super-long.  For some reason, TNM crowds never get bored with long matches, heh.

I once had a match consisting mostly of people with 40-60 work rate and little charisma go three hours and be a ***** match.  If that happened in reality, there'd be a riot.  (Just imagine the Big Show and A-Train wrestling each other for three hours straight and you'll get the idea.)

Oliver, I have my own question.  What determines how much heat a person gets?  I THOUGHT it was a combination of work rate and charisma until someone with very low in both became one of my hottest talents (and got on the Who's Hot list).  The character has 55 in both work rate and charisma and still manages to get MONSTROUS heat all the time, not to mention good matches.  Is there something internal that TNM is able to look at to see if you're booking someone especially well despite their work rate and charisma being very low?
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/03/04 at 15:36:28

Every wrestler's booking is tracked by the system, not in terms of whether or not it makes sense but in terms of how he is being used (e.g. if you take a lowly-ranked guy and have him beat top people all the time, it won't go over so well unless he really picks up steam).

Wrestlers have a dynamic in TNM. People familiarize themselves with the wrestlers, positively or negatively. A high charisma value makes it easier for a wrestler to become a somebody in your circuit, although it doesn't guarantee it.

Conversely, a low-charisma methodical wrestler will win the crowd over if his matches are consistently great. It's not the stats that count in TNM as far as wrestler heat goes but what the wrestlers do in their matches.
americamamushiPosted on 09/03/04 at 16:11:47

With all this new information...

Is there any real way/method to try and bring a guy back from the not list?  Would it end up just being luck or are there some method you could try and would help your odds
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/03/04 at 17:08:16

Presumably book them against people who can carry them to good matches, give them some wins and some losses, and have them contend for high spots now and then.  Internet smarks like to refer to this as pushing somebody down the crowd's throat, and it often doesn't work.  Occasionally it does, however, and the results are spectacular.  Also, try booking them so that if they hit their finisher, the match is always over.  I don't know whether this works or not, but I think that realistically it should.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
americamamushiPosted on 09/03/04 at 17:17:47

Yeah, i guess after all this new info about arenas and exactly how deep TNM7 really is maybe we should start using realistic booking ploys and old fashion methods for getting people over.
Snabbit888Posted on 09/03/04 at 20:21:30

The only tangible that doesn't play into all this though is how good someone is on the mic.  But that's unavoidable, quite frankly.
Rick GarrardPosted on 09/03/04 at 22:12:11

Yeah, i guess after all this new info about arenas and exactly how deep TNM7 really is maybe we should start using realistic booking ploys and old fashion methods for getting people over.
trust me... it works.  :)
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/03/04 at 22:19:15

I never could get Mark Briscoe over despite everything I did.  His charisma was just too low.  Guess he needed a few more high profile wins.  That's the problem with running unbooked, I suppose. ;D

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
darkmimePosted on 09/04/04 at 00:17:51

I have to say, I about crapped my pants when I got my first ever 5* match....

In an epic showdown as...

The Patriot defeated The Hurricane in the first round of a World Championship tourney!

:-D