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Interview with Jim Cornette (worth a read)

Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/26/04 at 17:58:51

Jim Cornette interview talking about current wrestling scene done on the Wrestling Channel

Jim Cornette appeared via telephone for an interview with The Wrestling Channel this past Friday on the Bagpipe Report. This recap is over 4,000 words but is well worth sticking with and reading in it's entirety.

The segment begins with Norton directing a whole load of superlatives to Cornette. Cornette joked that his PR guy is fired and Blake will take his spot. "You read it almost as good as I wrote it."

Blake questioned Cornette about the OVW-WWE link-up and Jim's role in the developmental system.

"Let me start from the beginning. Five years ago I was living in Stamford, Connecticut, working in WWE office -- and a lot of the work I was doing was going to different independent events and looking at new talent and trying to scout people that you know are the future of wrestling. At that point in time I re-met and old tag team member of mine Danny Davis, who I managed as one of the Nightmares. He had a school here in Louisville, Kentucky, which is my home town. So the concept was let's make an official developmental system. Memphis was already a loose development system in that they had a promotion there and the WWE would sign guys and send them there to wrestle in front of people and get experience. But there was no wrestling school or training facility so we put it together that I could move back to Louisville and we could have a full service down here where we train the guys from scratch or they've been in the business for a while and they get signed by the WWE the! y come and see what we do, they get comfortable with the style. We take students of our own from our school and some of the have been awarded contracts. So basically we have a full service training facility. We run live events, we have a weekly television show, we have a full-time training center and several different classes."

Blake asks Cornette about the impact he has on choosing which talent are brought up from OVW to WWE.

"We can make recommendations and it's up to a lot of times the creative team and I'll be honest it's chocolate and vanilla; some people think this guy's ready and some people think that guy's ready. It comes down to what they want to put on television and that everybody tries to make it work."

Blake questioned Cornette on which talent he thinks we will soon see on WWE TV.

"Well I think Nova has done a tremendous job here so far. He's wrestled all over the world and I think he's been ready for sometime and just the right spot has not been available, but I think at anytime something could happen for him. Nova is a completely different person now (from his ECW days). Also Matt Morgan who had a brief time on the full time roster, the kid is a tremendous athlete, as strong as a bull. He's really improved the last several months and I think is going to be a player. Matt Cappotelli, the kid that won Tough Enough, Jonny Jeter who is the personal prodigy of Nick Dinsmore who's now the most popular human in the world. This kid is only 22 and he's been working for three years and he was a natural to begin with. You've got a lot of kids down here who I think are going to do something; Alexis Laree on the female side."

Blake asked Cornette his thoughts on the Tough Enough concept and the talent that went on to the WWE.

"We've turned down a bunch of people who wanted to do documentaries at our training center and want to disguise some guy as a professional wrestler and train a guy over a weekend. I hate the promotions that do that and that stinking Rick Bassman out in California, every time you turn on the television in America you see a documentary on wrestling schools and it's always Rick Bassman who's a crook and I've said so and he can sue me if he wants to. Do you ever see a documentary on magicians? When they're learning their tricks, when they're executing them and trying them out and they don't work, but you see how they're done. Too me it's distasteful, I hated the whole idea of Tough Enough being on television. I'm all in favor of finding talent, I'm not in favor of showing a wrestling school on television."

Blake asked Cornette what he thought of the Elite Pro Wrestling training program, setup by Les Thatcher, Harley Race and Ricky Steamboat.

"Well now that you've said Les Thatcher, Harley Race and Ricky Steamboat, three of the people I do respect in this business I will respectfully disagree and I don't like it because it's like 'train at home, a 2 week course.' Would you want open hear surgery by a doctor that passed a trained at home course. A train at home course is not going to make anybody a professional wrestler. It's ridiculous. All it does is show everybody that they think it's easier than it really is because people used to think it was more difficult than it was. Now they think it'd easier than it really is. We've gone completely the opposite way. Every Joe Schmo at bake n shake thinks he can be a pro wrestler and you can't. And that's why in large part guys come into the business these days with a very different outlook then guys had 20 years ago and it hampers them in learning how to be good at what they do."

Blake asked Cornette how his affiliation with ROH began.

"I'd known Rob Feinstein for ages because he always used to sell a bunch of tapes of whatever promotion I was doing and after I caught him the first time he started giving me money for it (laughs). I've known Rob and he was involved at the time and they were in Dayton, Ohio, which is like three hours from my house. He asked if I'd like to make an appearance at the show in Dayton and I said 'oh yeah OK I'll do that.' And the guys worked hard, the crowd was fun and so then he asked me to come to a bigger show in New Jersey and I don't fly anymore so that was a 1400 round mile trip for significantly more money but I had a good time also. I did a few things for them. And then Rob had has public relations trials and tribulations and Gabe Sapolsky who is the ROH booker has been real good with me also. It's like on of those situations where you know a bunch a people and all of a sudden they start arguing with each other. I'm building a house here in Louisville that's taking up a! lot of my time, OVW takes up a lot of my time, I don't fly and I don't have time to drive a lot of places, I've just been busy and I told them, I said 'look, don't say never but not right now, let my get my house finished then we'll work together again.' And that's for the new ROH, I've got nothing against Rob. There's no heat I've just had not had a chance do really do anything and I'm doing it mainly to have fun."

Blake asked Cornette about the 'Strong Style' sweeping the American indy scene.

"Everybody wants to have the next breakout style. We can talk about the dogs making love in the street. You're going to watch that for about 30-45 seconds depending on who you are but even that gets tiresome. Car wrecks, big car wrecks -- everything blows up, people running screaming while on fire, heads flaming. You're going to watch that; but if it goes on for twenty minutes you get bored. You can sit down and read a book or watch a movie with a story and that will hold your attention for a lot longer period of time. I just think there's no replacing, you can modify, you can tweak but it comes down to two guys or whatever that people care about, that are mad at each other, that are fighting for something and you tell them a story. And it doesn't matter how technical your wrestling is or how hard you hit somebody or if you have 16 tables in the ring. It depends on whether they care about what you're doing."

Blake asked Cornette what he thinks WWE needs to do to turn business around.

"What you've got to remember is they're still on top. They're the biggest company in the world. The problem is that when you have a boom, every great peak is followed by an equally distant valley. In this business it's a cycle. Now that the main promotion is a national, worldwide promotion the peaks and the valleys come all at the same time. There's never being a period of wrestling when wrestling was selling out everywhere, all the time, every time. The company now is in a valley because the stars are not hot. See Vince Russo tried to take a lot of credit. The only credit I give him is for destroying the wrestling business. He tried to take credit for putting the WWE attitude over. He was overlooking the fact that he had Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock, two off the hottest stars ever to come up, the two hottest, both at the same time. You could have read cooking recipes on the television show and it would still drawn because it's a talent driven business. Vince Russ! o didn't do anything but hamper the undercard that couldn't stand up to him. Now you are always in between stars. There was no star between Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin in that period of the early 90's. Instead of hurrying people, instead of rushing people now if a start isn't there you can't make one. You can help them along but if Steve Austin had been Steve Austin and the Rock hadn't been the The Rock the pushes they got wouldn't have helped. It takes a creative push and it takes a talent".

Blake asked how big a loss Cornette thought Brock Lesnar was.

"Truthfully, not really. I'm not Brock's CPA so I don't know how much money means to him. Brock goes up there and he becomes the champion and then he's suddenly surprised and thinks he won't see his family enough. I don't understand why he wasn't prepared for that. It's like paying to see a movie and leaving halfway through".

Blake asked Cornette his thoughts on WWE putting Benoit and Guerrero on top come WMXX.

"I thought it was one the greatest things I've ever seen because I think it meant more to a lot of the boys than it did to the fans. Here you've made the statement that of the two major wrestling champions in the world both of them are the most respected guys in the ring amongst their peers. Rather than there because they cut a great promo or great body or the Ultimate Warrior for God sake, or Sable. Empty silicone or surgically enhanced body with no brain and no talent. No here's the two guys that can tear the house down with almost anybody, every night. They grew up loving wrestling, I think it meant more to the boys than it did even to the fans".

Blake asked Cornette what he thought of WWE's decision to pick up Goldberg and his thoughts on his WWE run.

"The guy was a huge star so I think the decision to hire him was valid. There's money been left on the table there. I don't remember meeting Goldberg so I don't want to knock a guy I've never met. He doesn't have a burning desire to want to be a wrestler from what I've heard, from what I've read. I haven't talked to him about it so that's just what I've heard. If guys don't really want to something then they should let the guys that really want to do it, do it. I mean the guy got to be a huge star in WCW and he'd have been so much bigger if they knew how they got him over and what to do with him when they did".

Blake asked Cornette what he thought of the idea to expand the number of PPV's.

"I don't know what the figures are because we're sitting down here in Louisville. I think there is a limit to what you can do and the problem with PPV's is that you have to plan do far ahead. I like the one a month myself because it's easy to keep track of, but at the same time I don't know of any that have lost money yet".

Blake asked Cornette if he has any interest in being on camera again.

"Absolutely not. After September 11th I stopped flying, I've been looking for an excuse for years. I've traveled for 20 years, I'm building a house here in Louisville now, I very seldom leave the town and like it that way. I did too much for too long and this way I'm here I'm at home I'm doing a wrestling show every week, I couldn't be happier if you gave me four times as much money I wouldn't go anywhere else".

Blake asked if Cornette would like to expand OVW and questioned whether he's happy with the WWE link-up.

"Right now we're basically in Kentucky and Southern Indiana. I would love if the stars were lined up just right to be able to get television in say Hunnington West Virginia and run a nice big show once a month. Maybe that'll happen in the future and I'm sure WWE would be proud of us if we did. We just concentrate on small operations and we concentrate on trying to take care of our area and do what we need to do and at the same time not make it too complicated. The worst thing that you can do in the wrestling business and the way that everyone has lost money is that you can either be too small to be big or too big to be small and then your screwed".

Blake asked if Cornette was familiar with the NWA:TNA product.

"Unfortunately yes. Vince Russo is on camera as a talent and I feel no need to pay $9.95 American money for the right to be just pissed off in my own home. If I have to look at his face then that's going to cause me to break stuff. So I never got one. Then I was taking some time off a couple of months ago and there I was sitting on the couch and there I was, so I ordered it. And I would like to say the production is amazing, the lights and the set and all they stuff they do. I don't know about the six-sided ring now, this was before that. They'll reinvent anything. But it was absolutely without a doubt the most abysmal putrefying all-inspiringly bad big budget wrestling show I've ever seen in my life. The matches made no sense, they went on forever, they went nowhere, they fell apart due to green guys trying a bunch of stuff that nobody understood even if they were sitting there with a notepad trying to keep track of it, because that Russo's idea of surprising people beca! use he's a moron. Jerry Jarrett I have a ton of respect for, he started me in the business, he was a tremendous promoter, a genius in the wrestling booking department. Jeff I've known for 20 something years, he's a great kid but Jeff Jarrett is not a guy to build a promotion around. I can understand because it's his promotion partially that he wants to make sure he cant walkout on himself, that's a factor. Still, take this dollars that they're spending on PPV's and start a territory in Nashville and Alabama and Mississippi and part of Georgia and you could run forever.

Blake asked Cornette his thoughts on wrestlers scripting out their matches.

"It's ridiculous. Wrestling is performance art. This is so hard to explain to people not involved in the business and even to some guys that are in the business. If you go out and plan to do one particular thing whether it be sing a song or cook a dish or throw a football or whatever and you plan to do it a certain way and the crowd that you are there to entertain and please doesn't like the way your doing it do you continue to stick it down their throats because that's the only thing you know how to do or do you go out and learn to feel them ala Ric Flair and lead them and see what they're buying and give it to them. The greatest matches in my opinion of modern time were Flair and Steamboat, they would talk for 5 minutes, 'OK see you out there' and they'd go out and they'd feel it and people were up and down, into it".

Blake asks where are the next Austin, Rocks going to come from and if there are people out there worthy of an opportunity.

"Yes and I don't know who they are. You can always say that kids going to be a big star, then they never get the job so they never get seen but they had the ability. Then you have guys who can't carry their push. Nobody would have said when Steve Austin was a Hollywood Blonde that that kid's good, he's going to be great. The Rock when he was Rocky Maivia when he came out of Survivor Series with the hair and everything, you saw the look, you saw the talent, you saw the ability, the kids going to be a big star. Make $20 million in the movies, no you crazy. You can't predict the next big star. That's why you should give everybody with talent a chance. And that's also why you should be very careful about pushing people that don't have the dedication to stick with it. Look at the Rock, he still comes back, he's a movie star for Christ sake. He still comes back and does RAW because that's what he loves, he grew up in the business. So anyway, the next big star is out there. The ! job is to find him, give him the spot to let him do his work and then the people decide and of course when all that easy stuff happens you've got a mega star".

Blake asks if Cornette has a much fun now that most of the audience are much smarter these days.

"Definitely not, it's not the same. I mean you could feel the people than wanted to kill you and feel the people that loved you. Here in Dallas they would drag the Von Erichs off the ring apron and the fans were hugging them trying to get a piece of their jacket or anything. And of course the heels would get knifed and chased down roads and shot at. That was fun. Now you can feel the difference. It's a shame that the kids now don't get to feel the atmosphere that we felt, you could feel the emotion in the building, it was so strong. That's something that Russo will never know about. Anybody that was never a performer in professional wrestling of some description has no business telling the people that get in the ring to do the stuff they're doing".

Blake asked what the fans perception of the business will be in 10 years time.

"For the people that analyze that much and a lot of people on the internet that don't have girlfriends and things of that nature, I'll go ahead and say it, I love controversy. When I was kid we loved wrestling, we read magazines, went to shows, we took pictures, we got autographs. But we didn't sit there and analyze, 'oh he scooped the arm drag on the hiptoss from the hurracanrana'. For Jesus Christ sake and plus we didn't know what we were looking at. Jerry Lawler and Terry Funk, holy mackerel; did you see how he managed to do that, it's ridiculous. The vast majority of the audience doesn't want to do that, they don't want to delve that deeply. They want to come, sit down have a beer in the arena, bring a sign, see some guy get whacked with a chair, see their hero win something and go home. That will always be a part of wrestling. But as more and more people find out more and more things more of them just go away from it, because it insults their intelligence now. That's! the problem. So you have to make new fans and hopefully the new fans will appreciate the new style, now that guys won't be in the hospital needing neck surgery".

Blake asked if promotion trying to introduce new styles to stay ahead of the kayfabe.

"Once again you can make anybody believe anything. I'm serious about this. I'm not saying that to be a wise-ass. You can make anybody believe anything if it's presented logically and rationally. And that is the basis of wrestling. I like this person because I either want to be like him, admire him or would like to hang out with him or I hate this person because he pisses me off or represents everything I don't like. And I want to see them fight, but why are they fighting. There's got to be some reason. Ah, because so and so wants so and so's championship belt. Now I know why they're fighting and the winner gets something. That's all you need to do. They have made it so complicated. Guys now get into the business so they can become promoters just to sit in the locker room with the guys, they don't know how to run a show. They just overdo everything to outfox themselves. The reason why I went to ECW once was as a favor to Chris Candido. Candido calls me, he says 'I need to ! ask a big favor can you make it to an ECW show'. I thought he was kidding me. I said Chris your out of your mind I don't want to come down there and do that. 'Well it'd be a favor for me and would really get me over with Paul because he needs a surprise for every show'. Now every show people expect a surprise. I said Chris would have you just said, if the people expect a surprise it's not a surprise. The very textbook definition of surprise is shocking unforeseen event. Your telling me now that this stupid son of a bitch that's running this company has to pay a major superstar to come in to be on his show every time he runs them but he can't advertise them because he people won't get a surprise."

Blake asked Cornette for his closing comments on the state of pro wrestling today.

"I think for all the guys that want to be wrestlers and we need more of them, the opportunity is there to make more money than ever before but the spots are harder to get. For all the guys concentrate on your strong points accentuate your strengths, try to hide your weaknesses, don't get too complicated and look at what the guys you admire in the ring do and try to emulate them. I would loved to have been a billionaire. Billionaire was my first job choice before wrestling manager. Wrestling manager was actually number two. I wasn't qualified so therefore I went with number two. Guys should do it for fun and if your really good at it keep going and try to get noticed. But don't kill yourselves just to get noticed. Just try to emulate guys that have been there, be honest with yourself and you cant go wrong."


Credit: although this interview was done on the wrestling channel, I got it from Dave Meltzer's site: www.wrestlingobserver.com
91Posted on 07/26/04 at 18:58:08

Cornette may just be the smartest guy in wrestling. I swear, I could listen or read what he has to say for hours and I wouldn't get bored in the least.
Oliver CoppPosted on 07/27/04 at 00:02:30

And if it hadn't been for him, there likely never would have been a TNM.
AnubisPosted on 07/27/04 at 03:19:11

He had a bunch of valid points, but not everything he said was gospel. Unfortunately, he was very wrong about the NWA-TNA product. I've been watching since I was able to start, and NWA-TNA blows WWE right out of the water. The ONLY reason WWE leads them is because they have name recognition and a lot more money. With the proper building, NWA-TNA could easily do what WCW did back in 1996.

So although Cornette was right on many points, the anti-NWA/pro-WWE stuff was just kinda sickening. I understand being loyal to your product, but if he was serious about caring about the wrestling business, he would not have been bashing NWA. Their product is head and shoulders above WWE right now. The difference in quality is just astounding. Unfortunately, it's still not available everywhere.

I also don't think that the only good wrestling is storytelling wrestling. There is something to be said for "shut up and wrestle". NWA puts more wrestling and more matches in a one hour program than WWE does in their two hour programs, and even the women in NWA can put on better matches than a huge majority of the WWE roster.
91Posted on 07/27/04 at 03:34:15

Your anti WWE crusade is pushing it a bit now. The NWA women are better than the WWE men? Uhhh, not exactly. Besides, as much as I like Jeff Jarrett (and hate Vince Russo), Cornettes called them both dead on. He was somewhat harsh on the talent, it sounds as though he only watched the one show and may well have caught them on one of their worst nights, but someone call me when they have anyone as good as Benoit or Angle in the ranks (Styles is awesome but, ummm, no).

And Cornette is dead right about the storytelling - any good "shut up and wrestle" match tells some sort of story as the match progresses, regardless of whether or not there's an angle tacked on. The best example of a famous WWE match I can think of was the Shawn/Bret iron man match, with Bret going out and in the early stages taking it lightly to Shawn with the intent of outwrestling Shawns high flying tactics, only for Shawn to surprise him by matching him hold for hold without going aerial for the first thirty minutes, forcing Bret to change his entire strategy and just start hitting hard impact moves - piledrivers, backbreakers and the like and plenty of them. Such abuse left Shawn a beaten man and only his determination saw him last through the final ten minutes where he was practically peeling himself off the mat to try and survive, even catching the odd near fall. And then the over time kicked in for a minute and a half, but we'll ignore that. But you get the idea - a story where each move they did meant something in the long run. The same applies to any great wrestling match, regardless of the style.

And for the record, that's my favourite match of all time.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 07/27/04 at 06:32:29

I've got to agree with 91 here.  Obviously you have your own opinions, and I totally respect that, but much of what Cornette said about TNA seemed fair to me.  Yes, WWE has been in something of a slump for the last few years, but they've managed to put on some damn good television as well.  My biggest criticism of WWE right now is that a lot of their stuff is hit or miss, and they can go from incredible television to tripe like the Diva Search in practically no time.  The good definately outweighs the bad in my view, and if it didn't I wouldn't still be watching WWE.

TNA hasn't been around for nearly as long, but they've run through both hot and cold streaks too from what I've heard (until recently I wasn't PPV capable, and I'm not planning on ordering any of their PPV's at least until I see Daniels and Styles in RoH again, so admittedly my understanding is secondhand).  According to every review I saw online, the entire autumn of last year into the beginning of this year was atrocious before things started picking up again.  He shouldn't have given TNA as much flak as he did, but if all he saw was a poor show from them, it's understandable.  I agree with Cornette about many of the things he said - Russo is controversial at best, and Jeff Jarrett isn't really the best person to build a promotion around.  His comments about no-psychology high flying is valid as well, but definately something of an exaggeration.  The X-Division has put on at least as many excellent high-flying matches as it has emotionless spotfests.

Personally, my favorite fed at the moment is Ring of Honor, but that's likely influenced by the fact that I'm from Philly. ;)

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 07/27/04 at 08:13:33

Oh, I agree with Cornette about Russo and Jarrett.  Russo is scum and Jarrett is NOT main event material.  His best time, in my opinion, was on the upper midcard as one of the Four Horsemen.  That is where he belongs.

As for my anti-WWE crusade, it's no different than a lot of the anti-high flying and anti-RVD and anti-anything not pure wrestling attitude around here.  You don't have to be a pure wrestler and know a lot of holds to be considered a good worker.  RVD and A.J. Styles are just as good if not better than Benoit, and just because they don't have the technical knowledge doesn't take away from that.

My way of determining a person's "work rate" is simple and, I believe, accurate: does the match entertain me and get me excited?  Very few brawls do, although there have been a couple.  High flying is usually better and on par with a good technical match, but the hybrid stuff (puro and ECW style stuff, including NWA in a lesser sense; everything save for the pure hardcore stuff) is usually the best.  Chain wrestling and hybrid styles are usually the most "exciting" I think.  WWE just doesn't cut it.

To explain better, here is why I am anti-WWE:

1) They emphasize brawling as the be-all end-all of wrestling, and most (NOT ALL, just most) matches are boring as a result.

2) They don't properly push talent.

3) The crap they put on television is just stupid most of the time.  If you can't do a good angle, don't do an angle at all.  Necrophilia NOT GOOD.  Dive search NOT GOOD.  Retards wrestling, sorry, NOT GOOD.  One-legged wonders?  Unbelievable.  They exploit damn near everything.  Their women are more often ripping each other's clothes off than wrestling, which I can go to a porn site to see hot chicks naked.

4) They treat little guys like they can't face big guys; they need to watch tapes of the Gracie family (except for Ryan, of course, because he sucks) in action to show how stupid that is.

5) Everything in WWE lately has been stale, and they goof up every good angle they get.

6) Evolution is a cheap rip-off of the Four Horsemen.

7) The only McMahon with any talent (Shane) has a crap position in the company.

8) They push untalented hosses (Big Show, A-Train, current Undertaker) that put me to sleep.

9) I said the NWA women can outperform MOST of the men, not all of them.  I know they aren't up to the level of Angle, Benoit, RVD, or Y2J.  They work a helluva lot better than guys like A-Train and Big Show, though, and just about any of the hosses.  Moreover, they actually wrestle more often than strip, something that can't be said for WWE women.

I hope that explains things better.  That is why I'm anti-WWE.  Simply put, I think they're ruining wrestling.  Between McMahon and the crap Russo pulled before (he's reeled in now thanks to the Jarretts), THAT is what caused the major slump of wrestling as a whole.  Less emphasis on sports entertainment and more emphasis on normal angles and good wrestling matches are what's needed.  Sorry, but WWE has not shown to be able to do that CONSISTENTLY.  Sure, they get lucky sometimes, like with the Iron Man Match tonight, but those matches are becoming rarer and rarer.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it feels like most people around here don't appreciate the many variable styles out there.  Anyone who does would not think WWE puts on the best show at the moment.  Take my words for what they are.  I'm not in this to piss people off.  This is the only good wrestling forum right now, and I know I'm not the only person to vent frustrations around here.  In all honesty, I just kinda thought Cornette's comments abotu the NWA product were hypocritical because WWE hasn't done any better.
americamamushiPosted on 07/27/04 at 08:49:31

RVD and A.J. Styles are just as good if not better than Benoit
... just... wow... I'm gonna let someone else touch that one :)

You're right, you don't have to be a technical genius to be a good wrestler and worker.  I for one know that I have never said that.  I may have stated before that certain people from the days gone by of the sport deserve a little more merit than they are given from today's fans because of their technical skill or abilities in other areas of wrestling.  

I may be wrong, but I don't think most of the setiment around here is anti-high-flying, anti-RVD, anti-anything thats not pure wrestling.  Many people even when argueing against different RVD aspects have stated that they still like RVD.  I like RVD.  I mean, he's not my favorite or anything.  I think what most people are anti- (and again, I may be wrong) is spot monkeys who just do high spots for the sake of high spots and because thats what all the marks wanna see, seriously.  In my eyes it's sad that wrestling has come to that.  I'm not anti-high spot, but there is a science to wrestling that seems to be slowly fading away.  There is an entire psychology to wrestling that alot of the newer guys must just not 'get.'  I ilke AJ Styles (What I've seen of him, only been watching TNA since they got on FOX Sports) but I just don't really see the ring psych.  Triple H, for all his faults is still a great ring psychologist (when he wants to be).  Jake Roberts (when he was sober ;D) was no athlete of the year, but he was a master at ring psych.  You don't have to be good at wrestling to be good at wrestling.  A wrestling match should tell a story, if it doesn't then theres something wrong.
xsouporheroxPosted on 07/27/04 at 09:00:38

Try to get ahold of some of AJ's ROH stuff and you'll see why he's one of the top three if not the single best in-ring worker in America not in WWE. He can fly, can mat wrestle, has some great high impact stuff, sells like a champ, and has a real knack for psychology. In other words, comparing him to RVD makes me sad. Again I like RVD, he's a good worker. But he's not one of the best ever.
91Posted on 07/27/04 at 19:43:44

Oh, I agree with Cornette about Russo and Jarrett. Russo is scum and Jarrett is NOT main event material. His best time, in my opinion, was on the upper midcard as one of the Four Horsemen. That is where he belongs.

I think Jarrett can be a main eventer of sorts, and it's not like TNA has an influx of better options, he's just not the guy to be THE number one guy in the promotion. Triple H, for all his faults, is someone that everyone can buy as a legit top guy.

As for my anti-WWE crusade, it's no different than a lot of the anti-high flying and anti-RVD and anti-anything not pure wrestling attitude around here.

There isn't an anti any-of-the-things-you-said attitude, it's an anti RVD-is-the-greatest-and-spot-monkey-matches-are-the-best attitude. For the millionth time, I like Van Dam and I enjoy a good high flying match, or a good any-style match period.

You don't have to be a pure wrestler and know a lot of holds to be considered a good worker.

True.

RVD and A.J. Styles are just as good if not better than Benoit,

Not true. Not even close. Not even remotely close.

and just because they don't have the technical knowledge doesn't take away from that.

No it doesn't, but it doesn't automatically make them the best either. Van Dam can be very good when motivated (which he hasn't been for well over a year now) but there are better high flyers. Styles is one of the top guys in the States and has years ahead of him to perhaps become THE best, but his inexperience, compared to a guy like Benoit at least, still shows through when you look closely.

My way of determining a person's "work rate" is simple and, I believe, accurate: does the match entertain me and get me excited?

That's how it should be, but you really need to look deeper into some matches.

Very few brawls do, although there have been a couple.

Depends. If it's two big lugs who just punch and kick their way through a match and lumber around like pregnant walrus', which it is a great deal of the time, then I agree. On the other hand, take a look at the late 90's WWF main event scene for a perfect example of entertaining brawls. Austin was great at that, now that his pure wrestling ability had been hampered by the neck injury, Foley too. A while back I watched the first Shawn/Undertaker match that everyone has forgotten about in the wake of their HIAC match and I had never realised how frigging awesome it was.

High flying is usually better and on par with a good technical match,

Very often it's just two guys hitting high spots for no reason. Whilst you have guys like Rey Mysterio or indeed Styles who had implement such moves seemlessly into a match, you get others (take a look at a lot of Lucha Libre guys) who just hit big move after big move for no reason whatsoever, half the time while the opponent stands around waiting for them to hit it. That's not good wrestling, that's just a glorified acrobat performance.

but the hybrid stuff (puro and ECW style stuff, including NWA in a lesser sense; everything save for the pure hardcore stuff) is usually the best.

Depends who you're talking about. Most of the puro guys can take it to the mat well anyway, so they don't count as straight high flyers. With ECW, most of it was hardcore stuff anyway with a dose of high spots thrown in - some were able to churn out good matches on a regular basis (Raven for example) whilst some were absolutely dire (Sabu, Sabu, a thousand times Sabu).

Chain wrestling and hybrid styles are usually the most "exciting" I think.

It's only good if it flows. A lot of the time it doesn't, it's just a bunch of spots that aren't worked into the match as appropriate. There's no story being told there, it's just a case of "look what I can do everybody". The great high flyers are guys who don't do that. At the end of the day, the best matches are the kinds that tell some sort of story that suck you in and whilst one might say it doesn't make it the best style by proxy, there are a lot more ways to tell a good story with technical wrestling.

WWE just doesn't cut it.

Snore.

To explain better, here is why I am anti-WWE:

1) They emphasize brawling as the be-all end-all of wrestling, and most (NOT ALL, just most) matches are boring as a result.

Last time I checked, Chris Benoit was their world champion and lord knows they've never emphasised him as anything but a technical wrestler. The "hoss" guys fit your description and sadly Vince has a love for such wrestlers, but a great deal of the roster aren't hosses.

2) They don't properly push talent.

True, at least with some guys. Sometimes the decent wrestlers get their dues, look at Benoit and Eddie, and sometimes you get poor saps like Kanyon, O'Haire and Lynn.

3) The crap they put on television is just stupid most of the time. If you can't do a good angle, don't do an angle at all. Necrophilia NOT GOOD. Dive search NOT GOOD.

Agreed.

Retards wrestling, sorry, NOT GOOD.

It's tacky on paper, but lord knows they've actually done alright with Eugene so far, though I am just waiting for the day that they blow it.

One-legged wonders? Unbelievable.

It failed miserably, but it didn't hurt to try, you could see the train of thought that went into it. It did hurt having him beat Matt Hardy mind you, particularly after Vince had beaten Gowen first...

They exploit damn near everything. Their women are more often ripping each other's clothes off than wrestling, which I can go to a porn site to see hot chicks naked.

Agreed.

4) They treat little guys like they can't face big guys; they need to watch tapes of the Gracie family (except for Ryan, of course, because he sucks) in action to show how stupid that is.

A lot of the time, but there have been a fair few exceptions. Rey's held his own for one. X-Pacs gimmick used to be "look how the small guy keeps kicking the big guys asses".

5) Everything in WWE lately has been stale, and they goof up every good angle they get.

Slightly harsh, but it's definitely not as good as it was, say, four years ago. They don't blow EVERY angle they get though, be fair.

6) Evolution is a cheap rip-off of the Four Horsemen.

I relate back to Jim Cornette and his seven year rule. Evolution has not done anyone any harm at all and has elevated Randy Orton and Batista very nicely. A knock off it might be, but a successful one it is too.

7) The only McMahon with any talent (Shane) has a crap position in the company.

Actually I have no interest in seeing any McMahons again, ever.

8) They push untalented hosses (Big Show, A-Train, current Undertaker) that put me to sleep.

Fair play, though you can't blame them for having The Undertaker on screen when he's a viable name guy, though I do wish he'd start putting people over properly. Actually the same somewhat applies to the Big Show. He's not a workrate dynamo, but he certainly serves a purpose.

9) I said the NWA women can outperform MOST of the men, not all of them.

It's still bollocks, however you try to gloss it over.

I know they aren't up to the level of Angle, Benoit, RVD, or Y2J.

No, they're not.

They work a helluva lot better than guys like A-Train and Big Show, though, and just about any of the hosses.

Whom are still in the minority.

Moreover, they actually wrestle more often than strip, something that can't be said for WWE women.

Granted, though there are exceptions (Victoria for one, is Jazz still around too?)

I hope that explains things better. That is why I'm anti-WWE. Simply put, I think they're ruining wrestling.

That's another stretch. Give it a couple of years...

Between McMahon and the crap Russo pulled before (he's reeled in now thanks to the Jarretts), THAT is what caused the major slump of wrestling as a whole.

Actually there's a lot more to it than that, notably the lack of any new superstars - notice the last slump in the WWE's fortune came right after Hogan left and right before Austin got big. As Cornette noted, things like creating a new megastar can't just be rushed, though they've clearly got a pre-selected guy in Randy Orton, who seems a good a choice as any. Looks like Summerslam onwards might be the chance to watch how he carries the ball.

Less emphasis on sports entertainment and more emphasis on normal angles and good wrestling matches are what's needed.

Can't argue there, though the sports entertainment side will always (or at least for a long time) have a place in American wrestling (hell, I hear even Japan has done a little) so you can't expect to eradicate it entirely. Good characters will suck people in, good matches will keep them watching.

Sorry, but WWE has not shown to be able to do that CONSISTENTLY. Sure, they get lucky sometimes, like with the Iron Man Match tonight, but those matches are becoming rarer and rarer.

LUCKY? They didn't just pull two names out of a hat and spun the random-gimmick wheel, that match was designed to be a great match (I haven't seen it, but since you seemed to like it, I'll assume it was). Now yes, there's a lot of throwing-at-the-wall booking but when you've got a big name, the storylines often write themselves. Besides, Benoit has been in a number of classics this year.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it feels like most people around here don't appreciate the many variable styles out there.

Says the guy who claims to have seen about two good brawls in his life.

Anyone who does would not think WWE puts on the best show at the moment.

Didn't say that either.

Take my words for what they are. I'm not in this to piss people off. This is the only good wrestling forum right now, and I know I'm not the only person to vent frustrations around here. In all honesty, I just kinda thought Cornette's comments abotu the NWA product were hypocritical because WWE hasn't done any better.

I didn't see Cornette praising the WWE to death either, he wasn't asked on the matter, hence the lack of any criticism. In any case, it's not like they're acting like the company is perfect when everyone at Titan has basically admitted how shit the GAB was.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/27/04 at 20:29:35

One thing I think needs to be mentioned (and this is t least the way I see it), is you can be the best highspot wrestler in the world and put on entertaining matches, like RVD is capable of doing, but that doesn't make you a great WORKER.  You can be entertaining and not be able to work a lick.  Hulk Hogan is one of the biggest draws ever, if not the biggest, and he can't wrestle to save his life.  RVD is an entertaining spot monkey, and I like him, but he has shown me jack on the mat and little in terms of much psychology other than his Five Star Frog Splash sell.  He can be a draw and he entertains, but to me, to be a good worker, you have to be well-rounded, not simply amazing at flying around.