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HEY OLIVER (or somebody else)! Workrate scale?

Fighter_HayabusaPosted on 08/07/03 at 14:24:23

Hi Oliver,

Since workrate in TNM has changed for the better with more accuracy, and wrestlers with workrates lower than 90 can still have decent matches, can you possibly give us a workrate scale? It would be helpful for me, as I'm going through my wrestler database making changes. Just name, say 5-10 workers from best to worst, and list appropriate workrates as a benchmark, if you have time.

I guess anybody who has been using TNM SE for a while could hlp out here, too.

Maybe I'll throw in the best and worst as starter guidelines:

30 Big Show
100 Kurt Angle

Thanks in advance!

FH
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/07/03 at 21:42:27

I'll provide examples for better illustration.

Wrestler Attributes Guide

It is absolutely important to give your creations realistic values for "Workrate", "Push", "Stamina" and "Charisma". If their values are too high, it'll disturb the balance and your wrestlers will appear to be better than they really are.

"Workrate" describes how well-versed a wrestler is in the ring.
     Examples:
     Kurt Angle                  100
     Eddie Guerrero            100
     Chris Jericho                  100
     Tajiri                        95
     Booker T                  95
     The Hurricane            95
     Chavo Guerrero Jr            92
     Spanky                  90
     Christian                  88
     Brock Lesnar                  85
     Triple H                  85
     Ric Flair                  85
     Shawn Michaels            85
     Lance Storm                  85
     Shelton Benjamin            85
     Goldberg                  80
     Undertaker                  80
     Randy Orton                  80
     Charlie Haas                  80
     Val Venis                  80
     Bill DeMott                  75
     Batista                  75
     Test                  75
     Maven                  75            Christopher Nowinski      75            Rosey                        75
     Scott Steiner                  70
     Hulk Hogan                  65
     A-Train                  65
     Kevin Nash                  50
     Nathan Jones            45
91Posted on 08/12/03 at 02:53:47

So Ol, if I update (being lazy, I'm still on beta 16), would I have to update all my workrate figures as according?
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/12/03 at 06:37:12

You don't *HAVE* to but importing the new files will do that for you :)
91Posted on 08/12/03 at 22:12:24

That'd be a bitch for me, I'd have to re-do all the names of peoples finishers and home-towns and such that I changed for story line purposes (damned if I'm getting rid of the 'haiku bomb' for example).

**edit** Pregnant dog? Oh man, that is TOO funny. I take it if it's pregnant, it doesn't have a thingy.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/13/03 at 10:40:34

OMG, I wasn't even aware that b-i-t-c-h was being censored - LOL
DominusPosted on 08/13/03 at 10:45:50

LMAO!  Haha. I was wonder what the hell that message meant!
JarOfMonkeysPosted on 08/13/03 at 19:58:34

Yeah, I was starting to wonder if all of 91's dogs were barking, since he was talking about pregnant dogs. Then I scrolled down and realized it was all a cover-up. :)

As for the workrate thing, just remember that it doesn't always make a difference when simming matches. Take my character Seth Rage for instance. He's got a 90 workrate (I think) and he seems to want to spend his matches doing five or six moves over and over again for the whole match. I'd like to fix the problem and have him unload most of his moveset during the matches, but so far I have no idea what to do.

Stuff like this makes me realize how much I need to get TNM7:SE more and more....
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/13/03 at 21:38:52

I'm not sure this is going to be different in SE because the scheduling algorithms weren't touched at all.

He keeps doing the same few moves over and over... hmmm... I've had this happen only one time myself and that was with a very light wrestler who I kept scheduling against "normal" to heavy wrestlers. Obviously, most of his moveset didn't work against them so he did one dropkick etc after another. Not a pretty sight :)
DragonShirasayaPosted on 08/14/03 at 05:47:47

So wait, am I to assume that the work rate system has been tweaked a little bit then? Because back in TNM 7 FE, anyone below like 85 was absolutely worthless.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/14/03 at 08:14:08

Yes, that is correct. I bit the bullet and went through everybody in the entire database and re-evaluated their workrate, push, charisma and stamina to reflect the new scale and today's reality.

This also means that the routine computing matching had to be changed meaning if you use native TNM 7 FE wrestlers, their ratings will be much higher than desired (since the average is now lower than it used to be).
DragonShirasayaPosted on 08/14/03 at 19:03:16

You know, with this change, you should make some way of indicating which of the individual exports are from FE. I wish I had knwon that before I imported all those guys in - now I have no idea who needs updating.

Or wait, all of those guys at least have their stats updated? I hope...
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/14/03 at 20:18:29

Depends on what you mean with "stats". I edited 500 wrestlers to update moves etc, which means another 1,000 only had workrate, push etc adjusted.
DragonShirasayaPosted on 08/15/03 at 04:02:28

Yeah, I didn't mean moves, I just meant their attributes I guess you can call them.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/15/03 at 08:44:53

On 08/14/03 at 19:03:16, DragonShirasaya wrote:You know, with this change, you should make some way of indicating which of the individual exports are from FE. I wish I had knwon that before I imported all those guys in - now I have no idea who needs updating.
Forgot to tell you that if I changed something about the exports, you couldn't use them on FE anymore which my goal was not to do.
AnubisPosted on 07/03/04 at 01:17:23

My only objection to the examples: No way is A-Train better than Kevin Nash.  Those two should be switched around.  A-Train and Big Show are the WORST workers in the industry hands-down.
91Posted on 07/03/04 at 02:32:03

I'm no fan of A-Train, but I'd say he's a lot better than Nash, at least the guy tries and has a couple of nice moves. Believe me, there are much worse than A-Train and Big Show out there (hell, Nathan Jones, a guy so bad that even the WWE realised nobody would be stupid enough not to notice). There are guys still on the roster who are worse than the above too.
AnubisPosted on 07/03/04 at 05:38:37

I have to disagree.  A-Train may have a couple nice moves, but his performance isn't up to Nash's.  Nash is at least intense.  A-Train is just, blah.  Big Show is FAR worse than Nash and A-Train both.  Nathan Jones would be worse than Nash and better than A-Train, methinks.  Here's about what I'd put them at:

Kevin Nash: 60
Nathan Jones: 50
A-Train: 20
Big Show: 10

No one in WWE is worse than those two losers.  They're a total bore in the ring.  At least Nash has ring presense.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/03/04 at 07:48:04

I can understand not liking A-Train and Big Show, but to say their workrate is that far below Nathan Jones is odd to me.  At WrestleMania 19, at least A-Train and Big Show got to wrestle in the match; Nathan Jones merely came in and did a piss poor couple of moves and won with the Undertaker.  That's gotta tell you something. :)
AnubisPosted on 07/03/04 at 08:18:25

Not really . . . I mean, c'mon, they use RVD as mid-card talent and JBL has the belt.  WWE is not known for knowing how to book anything properly.

How I wish for RVD to leave WWE and jump to NWA-TNA.  He'd fit in PERFECTLY with the X-Division.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/03/04 at 09:44:31

RVD's a spot machine, can't give a promo, and his offense is unique, but he never varies it.  He's been stagnant for at least 2 years now, and all the big pushes in the world won't be enough to jump start him.  I mean, look at the current Dudleyz.  RVD needs a gimmick retooling.  JBL is not a polished ring technician, but he can give a promo, and he's at least interesting.
91Posted on 07/03/04 at 15:31:54

Nash? Intense? Yeah, I agree... what's that? It's not 1994 any more? Oh...

Hell, the guy himself admits he's a really lousy worker. If he knows better than to defend his ability, why would anyone else want to?

As for RVD, the guy is good at what he does when he's up to it, but he's been unmotivated for a long time and it's shown in his performance. I like the guy, he's damned over and agree that he's been wasted and is better than JBL... come to think of it, pushes could help. When was he at his best in the WWE? His early days when he was getting a brief main event push. Not that it's going to happen.

And JBL? He can cut a good promo I guess, and he is interesting, but in the same way spontaneous combustion is interesting.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/03/04 at 21:05:41

I'm not saying JBL is great by any means, but with the way WWE currently is, I'd much rather watch JBL give a spirited heel promo and plod through a match with power offense than watch RVD phone it in.
AnubisPosted on 07/03/04 at 21:54:46

RVD's only problem is WWE limiting him and not using him properly.  They don't let him do half of what he can do.  Watch his ECW days and look at him now, and then remember all the restrictions WWE has in place, and you'll see the truth about RVD.  So what if he's a spot machine?  That's a good thing.  Spots are what make a match interesting.  Brawling?  No freaking way.

JBL interesting?  No.  Cutting good promos?  No.  He's got no personality even despite his gimmick.  Besides, if you look at promos and in-ring ability, in-ring ability is about twice as important.

A person's in-ring talent is what's most important, not their ability to gab on the mic.  As the saying goes, "Shut up and wrestle."  NWA-TNA knows, they have the right idea.  In their shows, they have more wrestling in one hour than WWE has in two.
darkmimePosted on 07/03/04 at 21:59:09

Like it or not, people don't pay to see 2 hours of wrestling, personally *I* would, but it's the Hulk Hogans, Steve Austins, and Rocks of the world that made wrestling "mainstream" and popular, not the RVD's, Chris Benoit's etc.


As for Nash, he once gave a great quote where he said that he could stay out drinking, show up half hammered and still give a better performance than most guys, then go hit the bars again.

Now he tears his quad when he even thinks about moving.

I think that says alot about his wonderful workrate.

The Big Show isn't nearly as horrible as people seem to think, maybe he's just underutilized like RVD?
Snabbit888Posted on 07/04/04 at 00:58:17

JBL interesting? No. Cutting good promos? No. He's got no personality even despite his gimmick. Besides, if you look at promos and in-ring ability, in-ring ability is about twice as important.

*** Ah yes, which explains why Hulk Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling history... all of his wonderful in-ring ability.  Hulk Hogan can do more with a single punch than Dean Malenko could do with a 20-minute match.  And don't get me wrong; I love Dean Malenko and think he's amazing in the ring, but fact is fact.
americamamushiPosted on 07/04/04 at 07:16:29

A-Train and Big Show are the WORST workers in the industry hands-down.
*cough*Goldberg*cough*

And maybe in a perfect world wrestling would still be wrestling first (whether they be technical gods or not) and the rest second like the good ol' days but you have to remember, even Vince McMahon himself would say that he's no longer in the 'wraslin' business, he's in the sports entertainment business.  I don't know if I'd actually call RVD a "spot machine," but any high-flying wrestler can have a spotfest, and maybe I'm a purest, but I'd rather watch a match that just has a couple well placed smart big spots than just high spots everywhere for no reason.
AnubisPosted on 07/04/04 at 08:10:06

Goldberg ain't as bad as some think, although he is of course not the best.  Goldberg was severely underused by WWE.  I like to take this time to point to matches such as Goldberg's match against Glacier (which I consider one of his best matches ever) and his work in Japan (where you can see quite a difference in his work rate).

Big Show?  Nah.  The man has never once anywhere shown that he can do anything aside from be "large and in charge" and use his size to make himself look invincible when he actually has no moves to speak of.

Anyway, wrestling has to count for something.  RVD gets pops almost as big as the Rock and RVD has no mic skills at all.  Mic skills may be able to do something, and SOMEONE needs them in a promotion, but RVD proves that someone can get over on raw talent alone.

As for Nash, well, him getting injured has nothing to do with how good a worker is.  If that's the case, Kurt Angle must be the worst seeing as his few injuries are worse than all of Nash's put together.  Nash isn't great.  Notice I scored him low.  I just do not see how anyone can think A-Train or Big Show are better.
AnubisPosted on 07/06/04 at 06:51:00

I'd also like to add that giving RVD a lower work rate (80) than Triple H (85) is just . . . WRONG.  So very painfully wrong.  RVD could outperform Triple H in his sleep on his worst day on Triple H's best day.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/06/04 at 07:04:04

Triple H knows some ring psychology; RVD doesn't.  Just because RVD sells his Five Star FRog Splash like he's been shot doesn't mean he's a workrate machine. :)
91Posted on 07/06/04 at 16:49:10

SLIGHT exaggeration there. Van Dam at his worst is pretty bad. True to say when he's good he's very entertaining and I like the guy and when Trips is at his worst, he's pretty dammed bad too, but at the end of the day, the best Triple H match I've ever seen outclasses any RVD match I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of RVD matches. Helmsley, when he's motivated (circa 2000, really), shows some ring psychology.

Don't get me wrong though, from a personal standpoint, I like Van Dam more than I do Hunter, but I still call it as I see it.
Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/06/04 at 16:54:24

First off, I like RVD! He's a spothound, but I like him. With that said, I don't think he can cut a promo the way guys like JBL and Booker T can. Athough, yes I do put wrestling ability above mike skills and promo cutting abilities, but if you want wresting skills look a guys in CW division like Jamie Noble, Rey Jr., Paul London (see how they can run with a promo, then give them the title to see what they can do with it, especially Rey Jr., he's been in the business that long now that he deserves at least one world title, even if it was only for one week.
Snabbit888Posted on 07/06/04 at 19:41:14

The length of being in the business should not be directly related to getting a World Title reign.  If that's the case, right after Mysterio's one-week reign, Mae Young better get a 6-year reign.
AnubisPosted on 07/06/04 at 22:09:55

Why does everyone act like someone doing a lot of spots is a bad thing? IT'S NOT. I'd much rather see a spot machine in action than stupid brawlers like Undertaker or Austin. They're not entertaining in the least.

Mic skills have nothing to do with work rate, so that shoudn't have any matter on RVD's work rate.

RVD has plenty of ring psychology. Check out his matches against Jerry Lynn. Check out his match against the Rock. Those were classics. I dunno why you think Triple H has more ring psychology than RVD, cuz he doesn't. Triple H and RVD have about equal ring psychology, but RVD is MUCH better as far as raw wrestling talent goes.

RVD ain't the best, no, but he beats Triple H. Triple H's best match was the Summerslam match against HBK. The only reason that beats any RVD matches is because RVD has never faced anyone of HBK's level in a major match (Jerry Lynn is no HBK); HBK carried Triple H in that match.

That said, here's how I see it:

Triple H: 80
RVD: 92
The Rock: 89 (minus points for the ridiculous People's Elbow, the second most retarded move in history aside from the Worm)

You see, looking at the definitions of the stats as well as real-life terminology, I consider work rate to be your "in-ring ability" only. It's how exciting your matches are and how well you perform your moves. Ring psychology, now that I think about it, would probably be covered by charisma part of ring psychology is making people care. Then again, RVD would have that because most people love his matches and always care.

The ONLY bad point of RVD's ability is selling the Five Star Frog Splash like he's the one who got it. Ironically, that's the most realistic thing in wrestling, as it WOULD hurt. That and Benoit's diving headbutt.

Anyway, I honestly think you guys may be mostly mistaking work rate and charisma. Work rate, as I understand it (and based on reality as well as the definition in TNM) is how good you are at what you do, that being wrestling. In the ring, Triple H and the Rock simply can't match RVD.

I would love to see a match between RVD and Hayabusa. That would be hellacious.
91Posted on 07/06/04 at 23:11:14

Hunters match at the Rumble against Mick Foley was his best ever, and whilst Foley took the big bumps, Hunter carried himself very nicely in that. The consensus from all was that it took both men to make that match, and a classic it was.

I'm not sure what psychology you saw in the Van Dam/Lynn matches. Very good matches yes, I certainly enjoyed them but spot fests don't equal lessons in psychology. Psychology is effectively telling a convincing story in your matches, everything transitioning perfectly from one move to the next and, if possible, relating back to what you did earlier. If it were more to do with charisma and getting the fans to care huge about your matches, Lance Storm (whom I love) would be a dire wrestler. Hell, that's why TNM has seperate values for workrate and charisma (probably).

Don't get me wrong, I like Van Dam and think he's good at what he does and deserves a decent workrate, but I can't see how he could be classified as a psychology monster. That said, ironically the one thing you criticised Van Dam for, I'd say, is a plus. The two men sell it (well, at least the opponent should ideally...) so that Van Dam gets hurt a little, as you'd expect, but the victim on the canvas gets hurt a lot and doesn't get up. Seems about right.

I'm also not sure how you can deduct marks from The Rock for the Peoples Elbow. Yes, it's a stupid move but the crowd pops HUGE for it and it certainly adds to any of his matches. Actually The Rock isn't a psychology master either (let's just say Dean Malenko won't be worrying about his "Man of a thousand holds" monicker) but he makes up for it with terrific timing, crisp execution and, yes, oddles of charisma, thus it usually equals a great match.

Helmsley is an odd one - when he's on his game, no pun intended, he's awesome, but he doesn't seem to get on his game very often. These days, he only seems to gut it out when he's facing Shawn (who you did say carried Hunter - a bit harsh, though Shawn is definitely much better than Triple H is and the matches wouldn't have been nearly as good if someone else had taken Shawns place). Still, a simple mathematical formula sums up my feelings... Triple H at his best > RVD at his best > RVD at his worst > Triple H at his worst.

Oh yeah, I agree - the length of time someone spends in the business should not have anything to do with whether or not they get a world title reign. It should have everything to do with who would be best for business.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 07/07/04 at 05:36:13

My personal viewpoint is that Big Show and A-Train are well above Kevin Nash in workrate.  During Nash's last WWE run, he didn't once move above a slow mosey, had a moveset half the size of any of WWE's other Big Men (Punch, kneelifts in the corner, clothesline, big boot, Jackknife, and that was pretty much it), executed his moves poorly, and didn't demonstrate much psychology at all.

Calling A-Train and Big Show worse then them seems a bit odd to me.  Ever since his feud with Brock Lesnar, Big Show has stepped up his game a great deal.  While he isn't the fastest or most technical wrestler in the world, he has a ton of intensity and his moves are executed well.  His matches have also tended to have a bit of psychology to them - he's no Freude, but he's held up his end in the "overpowering big guy who must be knocked off his vertical base" type matches he's been booked in.  I'll admit that I thought Show was next to worthless for a long time, but he's done a lot to prove me wrong in the last year and a half, and I can't wait for him to return.

A-Train... granted he's an ugly bastard, but he's got a good moveset, he's very fast for a guy his size, and he has the advantage over Nash of not looking like he's trying not to hurt himself the entire time he wrestles.  I can't really say much about his psychology, because the only singles run he had where he got enough exposure to have long matches was against Chris Benoit.  That produced some decent matches - nothing earthshattering, but he brought enough to the table that he could be carried to a series of very solid matches.  I've always felt that he gets an unfair wrap by most people, and that he arguably has the best workrate of anyone his size in WWE, with 'Taker being his only competition at this point (Kane at least seems to have slowed down a lot in the last year to me).  

As for RVD and Triple H, at present I would probably give both men 85s in workrate.  RVD is capable of more, but he's either been mailing it in for the past couple years, or he's been toned down to a few signature moves which might be impressive if used in the context of a larger match, but come off as contrived in 5 minute TV matches.  Triple H's workrate has definately fallen in the past couple years.  Injuries have taken him past his prime, which came in 2000.  Back then, I would have called his workrate 92, or possibly even 95.  When he came back from his quad injury, he was much slower and noticably rusty - I wouldn't have rated him above 70 in that period.  After a few months, he worked off some of his rust - it was just hard to tell because his opponents were almost invariably either squashed (RVD & Booker T) or not capable of holding up their end (Steiner & Nash).  While I don't think he'll ever be as good as he was in 2000 again, he's gotten back to the point where I'd call him a very solid worker and extremely carryable.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 07/07/04 at 07:08:46

On 07/07/04 at 05:36:13, Critic of the Dawn wrote:Calling A-Train and Big Show worse then them seems a bit odd to me. Ever since his feud with Brock Lesnar, Big Show has stepped up his game a great deal. While he isn't the fastest or most technical wrestler in the world, he has a ton of intensity and his moves are executed well. His matches have also tended to have a bit of psychology to them - he's no Freude, but he's held up his end in the "overpowering big guy who must be knocked off his vertical base" type matches he's been booked in. I'll admit that I thought Show was next to worthless for a long time, but he's done a lot to prove me wrong in the last year and a half, and I can't wait for him to return.
What has he done to prove anything?  It's not "skill" to do what he does.  He's big because he was born that way.  I mean, it's in his genes and that's how he grew.  Anyone of his size could do what he does.  He has THE most limited moveset in all of wrestling, more limited than even Nash's.  His moveset couldn't even honestly fit in TNM because it's so small.  He has what, punches, legdrops, elbowdrops, and throwing his opponent haphazzardly.  He does no named move save for the choke slam.  He has no ring psychology because ring psychology takes skill, something Big Show doesn't have.  I haven't seen any improvement whatsoever, honestly.

On 07/07/04 at 05:36:13, Critic of the Dawn wrote:A-Train... granted he's an ugly bastard, but he's got a good moveset, he's very fast for a guy his size, and he has the advantage over Nash of not looking like he's trying not to hurt himself the entire time he wrestles. I can't really say much about his psychology, because the only singles run he had where he got enough exposure to have long matches was against Chris Benoit. That produced some decent matches - nothing earthshattering, but he brought enough to the table that he could be carried to a series of very solid matches. I've always felt that he gets an unfair wrap by most people, and that he arguably has the best workrate of anyone his size in WWE, with 'Taker being his only competition at this point (Kane at least seems to have slowed down a lot in the last year to me).
Okay, maybe A-Train is better than the 21st Century Kevin Nash.  That's only because of Nash's age, if anything.  A-Train has no ring psychology whatsoever, and his moveset is extremely limited.  A wrestler's moveset is the meat and potatoes of what he can do.  Like Big Show, A-Train is limited to mostly throwing his opponent around and simple brawling.  He's an absolute bore to watch.  No entertainment.  Chris Benoit is a miracle worker to carry him to any good matches.  We already know that, though.  Last but not least (although this has nothing to do with his ring work), A-Train has NO mic skills and NO charisma whatsoever.

In the end, I honestly think that hoss types just aren't worth anything.  They're not the least bit interesting.

I would job Big Show and A-Train to my jobbers and a host of women in my circuit, but I don't want them polluting my TNM. :-X
Critic of the DawnPosted on 07/07/04 at 09:33:04

On 07/07/04 at 07:08:46, Anubis wrote:

What has he done to prove anything? It's not "skill" to do what he does. He's big because he was born that way. I mean, it's in his genes and that's how he grew. Anyone of his size could do what he does. He has THE most limited moveset in all of wrestling, more limited than even Nash's. His moveset couldn't even honestly fit in TNM because it's so small. He has what, punches, legdrops, elbowdrops, and throwing his opponent haphazzardly. He does no named move save for the choke slam. He has no ring psychology because ring psychology takes skill, something Big Show doesn't have. I haven't seen any improvement whatsoever, honestly.
You really don't see it?  Odd.  Most people I talk to both online and in person seem to agree that he's improved.  I certainly won't deny that an unmotivated Big Show is essentially useless, but I feel that he's been busting his ass for the past year and change to improve, and it shows.

As for his moveset, off the top of my head I'd give Show punch, slap, clothesline, lariat, short lariat, sidewalk slam, bearhug, kick to the head, superkick (I had a hard time believing that he did it, but the camera doesn't lie), inverted power bomb (the Alley Oop), inverted facelock elbowdrop (The Final Cut), the headbutt, the choke lift, the bodyslam, The Gorilla Press, vertical suplex, back suplex, hiptoss, elbow and legdrops, a few other brawling moves and the Choke Slam.  The official TNM export for him has 30 moves (24 unique moves).  While that may not be large, it's bigger than Nash's, which has 21 moves (20 unique).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.  :)

Okay, maybe A-Train is better than the 21st Century Kevin Nash. That's only because of Nash's age, if anything. A-Train has no ring psychology whatsoever, and his moveset is extremely limited. A wrestler's moveset is the meat and potatoes of what he can do. Like Big Show, A-Train is limited to mostly throwing his opponent around and simple brawling. He's an absolute bore to watch. No entertainment. Chris Benoit is a miracle worker to carry him to any good matches. We already know that, though. Last but not least (although this has nothing to do with his ring work), A-Train has NO mic skills and NO charisma whatsoever.
Train probably isn't wonderful with ring psychology, but when you consider the fact that most hosses are encouraged to no-sell with the fact that he hasn't really been given a lot of opportunity to work with good workers in long matches, it's not hard to see why he hasn't picked it up.  He hasn't really had much of a chance to do so.

Again I disagree on the moveset issue as well.  Aside from standard WWE Power Moves (Sidewalk Slam, Gorilla Press, and Powerslam), A-Train has fairly decent brawling skills, and some pretty cool signiture moves (the bicycle kick is very cool for a guy his size, he does a combo of avalanche and Vader Bomb which is pretty neat. I really like the Baldo Bomb... er... Derailer too), and his finisher (the Train Wreck) looks extremely painful.  Couple this with brawling and some basic submission stuff (he often throws an abdominal stretch or chinlock into the match).  From what I've seen (I think he's had like 5 minutes of total promo time in his years at WWE) he's very average on the mic.  He's not overly charismatic either, but I think some people see him as worse than he is (he does get a reaction, after all, and "Shave Your Back!" is a better reaction than "Boring!  Boring!"

In the end, I honestly think that hoss types just aren't worth anything. They're not the least bit interesting.

I would job Big Show and A-Train to my jobbers and a host of women in my circuit, but I don't want them polluting my TNM. :-X
Ah.  See, I'd disagree there.  While hosses generally aren't very good if your goal is to put on fantastic matches, they do tend to be useful for helping to get over your babyfaces, and if pushed in the proper manner, they can make a lot of money in their own right.  See Hogan/Andre for an example of this.  By the time Wrestlemania III rolled around, Andre could barely walk and had offense largely limited to simply chops, clotheslines, chokes, and nerve holds.  But because he was perceived as such a monster, the event did incredible business.  Hosses aren't the greatest wrestlers for fans of workrate, but they do serve an important purpose.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
91Posted on 07/07/04 at 13:20:38

Was I dreaming, or did I once see Big Show do a missile dropkick too?
Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/07/04 at 16:24:52

First off, I want to correct something that I said earlier, when I said Rey was in the business so long that he deserves a title, I should have been more clear and said that Rey has been in the business that long, and has worked his ass off that long that he deserves at least one title?

With that said...

In the end, I honestly think that hoss types just aren't worth anything.  They're not the least bit interesting.

I would job Big Show and A-Train to my jobbers and a host of women in my circuit, but I don't want them polluting my TNM.  
Not all hosses are bad! Look at Bam Bam Bigelow who is an amazing worker. Ditto for Vader! These two are well over 300 pounds, and in the case of Vader, over 400, yet they move as quick as some Japanese Jnr. Heavyweights! These guys are awesome. So like I said before, not all hosses are bad!
AnubisPosted on 07/08/04 at 01:23:44

On 07/07/04 at 09:33:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
As for his moveset, off the top of my head I'd give Show punch, slap, clothesline, lariat, short lariat, sidewalk slam, bearhug, kick to the head, superkick (I had a hard time believing that he did it, but the camera doesn't lie), inverted power bomb (the Alley Oop), inverted facelock elbowdrop (The Final Cut), the headbutt, the choke lift, the bodyslam, The Gorilla Press, vertical suplex, back suplex, hiptoss, elbow and legdrops, a few other brawling moves and the Choke Slam.  The official TNM export for him has 30 moves (24 unique moves).  While that may not be large, it's bigger than Nash's, which has 21 moves (20 unique).
Yeah, but that's cheating.  The clothesline and the lariat are the same move, and I don't consider punches, slaps, and hits to be moves at all.  Well, not in the brawling way, at least.  He has no "style" with his brawling.  He's like a big barbarian, and he's slow as heck.

On 07/07/04 at 09:33:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.  :)
I suppose.  I'll give you that he may have improved recently, BUT . . . going from "really horrible" to "bad" is not a huge improvement.

On 07/07/04 at 09:33:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
Train probably isn't wonderful with ring psychology, but when you consider the fact that most hosses are encouraged to no-sell with the fact that he hasn't really been given a lot of opportunity to work with good workers in long matches, it's not hard to see why he hasn't picked it up.  He hasn't really had much of a chance to do so.

Again I disagree on the moveset issue as well.  Aside from standard WWE Power Moves (Sidewalk Slam, Gorilla Press, and Powerslam), A-Train has fairly decent brawling skills, and some pretty cool signiture moves (the bicycle kick is very cool for a guy his size, he does a combo of avalanche and Vader Bomb which is pretty neat. I really like the Baldo Bomb... er... Derailer too), and his finisher (the Train Wreck) looks extremely painful.  Couple this with brawling and some basic submission stuff (he often throws an abdominal stretch or chinlock into the match).  From what I've seen (I think he's had like 5 minutes of total promo time in his years at WWE) he's very average on the mic.  He's not overly charismatic either, but I think some people see him as worse than he is (he does get a reaction, after all, and "Shave Your Back!" is a better reaction than "Boring!  Boring!"
A-Train's problem, I think, is his weight.  His body is shaped weird, and I think it limits him.  His bicycle kick is just his version of the big boot, and every big man can do that.  Same goes for the side suplex.  (I generally go with the technical move named instead of the crap WWE names.  By this, I mean that what they call a sidewalk slam is, in fact, a side suplex.  The sidewalk slam is the move Booker T used to do back in WCW where he'd lift him for a backdrop but then grab the legs and slam him down hard.)  Sorry about the nitpick.  I just REALLY hate WWE announcers, who don't know the name of any move really.  J.R. is the worst announcer EVER.

On 07/07/04 at 09:33:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
Ah.  See, I'd disagree there.  While hosses generally aren't very good if your goal is to put on fantastic matches, they do tend to be useful for helping to get over your babyfaces, and if pushed in the proper manner, they can make a lot of money in their own right.  See Hogan/Andre for an example of this.  By the time Wrestlemania III rolled around, Andre could barely walk and had offense largely limited to simply chops, clotheslines, chokes, and nerve holds.  But because he was perceived as such a monster, the event did incredible business.  Hosses aren't the greatest wrestlers for fans of workrate, but they do serve an important purpose.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
We are talking about work rate numbers, though, so I think that makes all the difference in the discussion.  Even if "usable", they're still piss-poor workers overall.

On 07/07/04 at 16:24:52, Owen Hart RIP wrote:First off, I want to correct something that I said earlier, when I said Rey was in the business so long that he deserves a title, I should have been more clear and said that Rey has been in the business that long, and has worked his ass off that long that he deserves at least one title?

With that said...


Not all hosses are bad! Look at Bam Bam Bigelow who is an amazing worker. Ditto for Vader! These two are well over 300 pounds, and in the case of Vader, over 400, yet they move as quick as some Japanese Jnr. Heavyweights! These guys are awesome. So like I said before, not all hosses are bad!
I'm not sure about Bigelow nowadays, but as far as they are concerned, I don't consider them to be hosses.  Those two are more like Mike Awesome and Brian Clark.  They're agile big men.  When I think of hosses, I think of recent Steve Austin stuff and all the big brawlers who have no substantial movesets.
Rick GarrardPosted on 07/08/04 at 01:41:20

wrong on the sidewalk slam.  The sidewalk slam in NWA/WCW was the finisher for Big Bubba Rodgers which later became the Boss Man Slam in the WWF.  The move by Booker T that you describe is the same move that Bob Holly uses named by the WWE, the Alabama Slam.
xsouporheroxPosted on 07/08/04 at 02:05:13

Except recent Steve Austin stuff was always able to pop the crowd better than RVD matches. You know why? Because Austin could tell a story in the ring.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 07/08/04 at 09:44:14

On 07/08/04 at 01:23:44, Anubis wrote:

Yeah, but that's cheating. The clothesline and the lariat are the same move, and I don't consider punches, slaps, and hits to be moves at all. Well, not in the brawling way, at least. He has no "style" with his brawling. He's like a big barbarian, and he's slow as heck.
See, I view clotheslines and lariats as similar but not identical.  The clothesline involves running toward the opponent and taking them down with an outstretched arm, while a lariat hits them in the same manner but with the arm itself swinging.  As for Big Show's style or lack thereof, I can agree with that statement.  He's never portrayed someone who relies on anything more than brute force.  Speed isn't his forte, and neither is strategy.  Pretty much the entire roster can outrun, outwrestle and/or outthink Show, but if he manages to catch them, it's pretty much over for them.  It ain't pretty, but it gets the job done.

I suppose. I'll give you that he may have improved recently, BUT . . . going from "really horrible" to "bad" is not a huge improvement.
Oh, I'm not arguing that Big Show is an incredible worker.  Just that he's substantially better than you give him credit for.  In TNM terms, he's gone from a 50 to somewhere between 60 and 70 in the last year and a half.  He's not a great worker by any means, but he's not a total slug anymore either.

A-Train's problem, I think, is his weight. His body is shaped weird, and I think it limits him. His bicycle kick is just his version of the big boot, and every big man can do that. Same goes for the side suplex. (I generally go with the technical move named instead of the crap WWE names. By this, I mean that what they call a sidewalk slam is, in fact, a side suplex. The sidewalk slam is the move Booker T used to do back in WCW where he'd lift him for a backdrop but then grab the legs and slam him down hard.) Sorry about the nitpick. I just REALLY hate WWE announcers, who don't know the name of any move really. J.R. is the worst announcer EVER.
I've noticed that he is oddly shaped, yes.  And oddly haired for that matter.  Still, it doesn't seem to effect the fact that he's fairly agile for a guy his size.  As for the bicycle kick, while it may be A-Train's equivalent of a big boot, it impresses me a good bit more than a standard hoss big boot because it generally involved running, jumping, and keeping his balance instead of just lifting up a leg.  As for WWE's announcers, I like Tazz's work, but King and Cole annoy me a bit.  JR is sometimes very good and sometimes not so hot.

We are talking about work rate numbers, though, so I think that makes all the difference in the discussion. Even if "usable", they're still piss-poor workers overall.

Yes.  I wouldn't rate either Show or Train above 70, and agree that in terms of workrate they are below average.  I just don't think they qualify as worse than the modern Kevin Nash, than Zeus, than Viscera, etc.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 07/16/04 at 22:39:44

On 07/08/04 at 01:41:20, Rick Garrard wrote:wrong on the sidewalk slam. The sidewalk slam in NWA/WCW was the finisher for Big Bubba Rodgers which later became the Boss Man Slam in the WWF. The move by Booker T that you describe is the same move that Bob Holly uses named by the WWE, the Alabama Slam.
I'll be damned, you're right about the sidewalk slam.  Still, my point stands that they don't know what a sidewalk slam is because what WWE calls a sidewalk slam is indeed a "side suplex".

I finally tried to find the move, and it appears to be a "double leg slam".  Very interesting.

I stand somewhat corrected.  WWE is still wrong, though.
Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/16/04 at 23:06:30

There is a difference between a clothesline and a lariat, in that a lariat is much stiffer than a normal clothesline. Stan Hansen perfected and originated the lariat, and I don't think anyone has come close to his version
AnubisPosted on 07/18/04 at 04:30:24

I dunno.  Moves usually don't have separate names based on stiffness.  If they did, the powerbomb and the Jackknife Powerbomb would be two different moves.

"The Big, Big Book of Wrestling Moves", however, considers them the same, and it's THE top source for technical move names.

Ace Crusher = Stone Cold Stunner
Clothesline = Lariat
Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/18/04 at 05:24:26

Actually, a true Jackknife power bomb is not what Kevin Nash does. A true Jackknife power bomb is a power bomb into a backward bridge. Kevin Nash's Jacknife is nothing more than a normal power bomb only elevated, ditto for Undertaker's Last Ride.
91Posted on 07/18/04 at 05:33:21

Saying a clothesline equals a lariat isn't really quite right - yes, they're the same basic move and a lariat is essentially a clothesline with a bit more oomph to it, but to say they are equal and the same is like saying a dropkick is the same as a one legged dropkick - pretty much the same move they might be, but exactly equal? Nadah.
Owen Hart RIPPosted on 07/18/04 at 05:40:57

I wish Jim Ross would read this thread so he can learn some wrestling move knowledge
91Posted on 07/18/04 at 05:43:32

"BAH GAWD! UNPRETTIER!! UNPRETTIER!! UNPRETTIER!!" *whisper* "Uhh, SLAM! SLAM! SLAM!"
xsouporheroxPosted on 07/19/04 at 18:43:08

On 07/18/04 at 04:30:24, Anubis wrote:I dunno. Moves usually don't have separate names based on stiffness. If they did, the powerbomb and the Jackknife Powerbomb would be two different moves.

"The Big, Big Book of Wrestling Moves", however, considers them the same, and it's THE top source for technical move names.

Ace Crusher = Stone Cold Stunner
Clothesline = Lariat
Heh, TBBBOWM, gotta love it. I don't consider it a good source for actual move names however. You end up with stuff like "double wrist clutch, shoulder seated, backdrop suplex pin" when Ocean Cyclone Suplex is much prettier.

And an Ace Crusher =/ the Stunner. The Stunner is based off the Ace Crusher but is not the same move.
Oliver CoppPosted on 07/21/04 at 07:36:26

Speaking of Stan Hansen: what not too many know is that his lariat came about by mistake. Hansen is blind as a bat and by mistake kept taking ppls' heads off for real with his clotheslines.