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How does Push work, exactly?

Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/06/03 at 02:28:14

This is just a matter of curiosity, really, as I'm no programmer and I doubt I'll have any real use for the information.  Still, curiosity is curiosity, and I hope someone can satisfy it.  :)

Obviously a higher push rating increases the chances of victory in a given unbooked match.  What I'm wondering is how it does this?  What exactly does it effect?

Does it make a wrestler's moves and/or finishers do more damage?

Does it make the opponent's moves and/or finishers do less damage?

Does it increase the chances of a successful pinfall or submission attempt?

Does it decrease the chances of a successful pinfall or submission against the wrestler in question?

Does it increase the chances of a wrestler gaining and/or keeping the initiative in a match?

Does it work in some other way that I haven't thought of?

Ideally I'd like to hear from Oliver about this, but failing that, I welcome any and all guesses and observations from the TNM7 community.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/20/03 at 18:23:15

All you mentioned actually takes place.

But - this might throw you off - the wrestler's absolute push isn't what is used. It's the ratio of the wrestlers' pushes that is used to calculate multipliers etc.

For instance, if you have wrestler A with a push of 100 and wrestler B with a push of 75, A has a 100/75 ratio over B (133%) while wrestler B has a ratio of 75/100 (75 percent).

That doesn't automatically mean that if wrestler A does the move X to wrestler B, his move will do 33 percent more damage than usual - nor does it mean that if it's the other way round, 25 percent of the damage are deducted.

We're talking about potentials here. If a move has a damage rating of 100, with wrestler A it has a maximum damage potential of 133 while with wrestler B it has a maximum damage potential of 75.

In a nutshell, it's still possible for one particular instance of this move done by wrestler A will generate a damage of 30 while the same move by wrestler B MAY cause a damage of 70, however it's not very likely to happen.

Push ratios affect everything from countering to pinning, making submit, getting countouts (albeit pushes don't play a major role here) and even getting the nod if a match is tight.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/21/03 at 07:47:23

Hey, thanks a lot.  That's much more information than I expected to get, and it definately satisfies my curiosity on the subject.  Makes a lot of sense, too.  Simple yet elegant.

However, it's been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I can see where the saying came from, because now my head is full of all sorts of other questions.  So, if you don't mind, I'll ask a few more.  Feel free to decline to answer any of them, as I don't want to make you give away all your secrets or anything.  My repressed hereditary tendancy towards engineering and the like is just kicking in and making my wonder what's hiding under the hood and how things work, basically. <Grins>

Do all finishing moves have a single given damage value?  Or do they do some multiple of the damage of their "similar to" move?

Damage ratings appear to have little to do with how much (as a percent) damage they do in matches, other than the fact that larger ratings result in larger percentages, generally.  I'd guess that each wrestler has a given total number of "hit points," so to speak, and that the modified damage is subtracted from this.  What creates this figure?  I can see stamina, push, weight, build, and other factors all contributing, but I very well could be overanalyzing.  Is there some big complex formula with quadrillions of variables that generates figures in the low thousands, or some simpler method?  Or am I way off in left field and missing something ridiculously simple?

Gah...  I'm thinking far too much about this. <G>  Must repeat to myself "It's just a game, maybe I should just relax."  ;D

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Fighter_HayabusaPosted on 05/21/03 at 15:07:18

Thanks for the incredibly detailed explanation, Oliver. Does this still figure into matches if strict pushes are turned off? Please explain what activating/deactivating strict pushes actually does.

Thanks!

FH
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/25/03 at 23:06:41

On 05/21/03 at 07:47:23, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:Do all finishing moves have a single given damage value? Or do they do some multiple of the damage of their "similar to" move?

Damage ratings appear to have little to do with how much (as a percent) damage they do in matches, other than the fact that larger ratings result in larger percentages, generally. I'd guess that each wrestler has a given total number of "hit points," so to speak, and that the modified damage is subtracted from this. What creates this figure? I can see stamina, push, weight, build, and other factors all contributing, but I very well could be overanalyzing. Is there some big complex formula with quadrillions of variables that generates figures in the low thousands, or some simpler method? Or am I way off in left field and missing something ridiculously simple?
1) Finishers have a simple, singular damage value UNLESS the program knows which move they are based on, in which case the actual damage potential is based on a myriad of factors such as pushes of the people involved, remaining "hit points" (the fitter you are, the less likely it is that the move will be devastating), how long you've had to recover and so on.

2) In fact, the formula which comes up with a wrestler's hit points at run-time is very complex. Among other things, it depends on his push, stamina, the opponent he is facing (if a superstar faces a jobber, the superstar starts out with a far bigger number of hit points), the match type (in tag matches, hit points are deducted to keep total match time in check). Weight and build influence the "weighted" stamina value this calculation is based upon. There are only two ways to gain hit points during the course of a match: regeneration (for instance, when doing nothing or executing a submission move) and hulking up.

Hope this helps :-)

PS: I did simplify the entire process greatly in this reply but explaining it all would have led to about three to four pages of text being written here ;-)
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/25/03 at 23:08:32

On 05/21/03 at 15:07:18, Fighter_Hayabusa wrote:Thanks for the incredibly detailed explanation, Oliver. Does this still figure into matches if strict pushes are turned off? Please explain what activating/deactivating strict pushes actually does.
Welcome... always :-)

Strict pushes have only one influence on the match: when it comes to deciding whether or not a finish is acceptable. Whenever a situation is encountered which can potentially be match-ending, TNM calls a function named "finish_ok" which checks - among other things - if the finish should be allowed to go through push-wise and if it's allowed to go through booking-wise.

Strict pushes do not, however, influence the damages wrestlers take during the matches.
Fighter_HayabusaPosted on 06/09/04 at 16:12:25

*Bumps post because this is a great explanation to a question that is asked monthly*
AnubisPosted on 07/03/04 at 00:47:41

Bump, since it pretty much answered my questions.