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I would like information on the following moves

Scott W. BreonPosted on 06/14/04 at 13:31:40

I need to know about some of the following moves, I want to add some to TNM, I just want to know what would be good counters:

1. The Burning Hammer
2. The TKO Ace Crusher
3. The Shining Wizard (IS THE SHINING ENZUIGIRI THE SAME THING???)
3. Falcon Arrow
4. Michinoku Driver (whichever one that is not the one that's in TNM)
5. Baldo Bomb
6. Styles Clash
7. Tomikaze
8. Cradle Piledriver
9. K-Driller
10. Texas Cloverleaf
11. Cancun Tornado
12. Gamma Bomb

Also I want to know what is a folding power bomb?
CarlzillaPosted on 06/14/04 at 19:50:27

1. It's almost the same thing as a Reverse DVD,  the only real difference is that the opponent is put on the top turnbuckle and then picked up across the shoulders from there. - I would maybe use a crucifix as a counter.

2. Mark Mero used to do this, it looks like half of an F-5 turned into stunner. - ???

3. The Shining Wizard has about a zillion different versions, it's basicly a running jumping knee to the face/head. the Shining Enzuigiri is the same idea but not the same move. - a duck down would probably work for this one.

4. I guess I would describe it as a suplex into a Michinoku Driver. - Anything that would counter a suplex could be used to counter this move as the setup is exactly the same.

5. Sitout double chokeslam - I would use a kick to the gut, or an eyerake.

6. falling facebuster with your legs underhooking the opponents arms, then the opponent is rolled into a pin. - ???

7. ??? - I don't even know this move is, I would love an explaination from someone if they feel like posting it :)

8. A piledriver with one of your arms between the legs of your opponent. - Anything that can counter a piledriver would be able to counter this.

9. see 7

10. I would best describe it as a figure 4 sharpshooter. - it could probably be countered by the same things as a sharpshooter/scorpion death lock.

11. see 7

12. see 7

A folding powerbomb, at least in my understanding, is a powerbomb where you fold the other guys legs over his head for a pinning attempt at the end. (I may be wrong, so if I am please correct me.)

I hope this was helpful to you. I am sure others will add more counters and things.
kicPosted on 06/14/04 at 19:55:09

Pretty much any of those piledrivers/power bomb moves (that start in a power bomb position) can be countered by a back drop. Another possibility might be a double leg-takedown (pretty sure I've seen something like that countered that way before).

I think I can remember a time when someone (don't remember who) countered Malenko with a small package (or some kind of roll-up/pinning maneuver) when he was trying to slap the Cloverleaf on.

This may require some imagination, but I can see the Tomikaze being reversed into Helms's Vertebreaker. (Gotta picture it, but it works, sorta.)

Since there's so many variations on the Shining Wizard, you have too many possibilities there. The way Helms does it compared to how Muta (or Mutoh, or whichever of his "personas" does it) can be wildly different. I think one of the guys in TNA does one as well, and its a little different.

Some of those moves I'm just not familiar with and can't really offer anything helpful. Sorry. Hope these few ideas help though.
xsouporheroxPosted on 06/14/04 at 20:04:08

1. Carl covered it find. You can also flip out of it. Happens a lot in ROH and CZW with Dan Maff.

2. Good counters would be a flip out and a crucifix maybe.

3. Shining Wizard. Holy crap. Hurricane does a Shining Black, not a Shining Wizard. As it is though, half the ROH/CZW rosters use the Shining Wizard. I've seen it blocked into and STF and a power bomb both. But I know this move is already in TNM, at least with some exports.

3b. The Falcon Arrow is a vert suplex into a laid out Michinoku Driver. A Driving Falcon Arrow drops the guy on his head rather than his back.

4. I only know the Driver he used in America.

5. That one was covered.

6. Greatest...move...ever. If you've ever seen one of the five bazillion situations AJ can hit it from you'll know why.

7. I used to know what this is, but i forgot.

8. This one was covered well.

9. I only know the J-Driller and I have no idea if they are the same move or not. But the J-Driller is a double underhook piledriver, like Kid Kash's Monemaker.

10. Texas Cloverleaf was Dean Malenko's move in WCW. That's all you need to know. Dean Malenko did it so it's cool.

11. I'm pretty sure this is Hector Garza's twisting moonsault.

12. No idea.
Scott W. BreonPosted on 06/14/04 at 20:15:24

The Tomikaze is the same as Christian's unprettier
The K-Driller is a seated reverse piledriver (not a tombstone) it's the piledriver variation that Owen Broke Austin's neck with! a Cancun Tornado is a in ring corkscrew plancha done from a moonsault attempt. The Gamma Bomb, I believe is kind of a running corkscrew variation of the Northern Lights Bomb
americamamushiPosted on 06/14/04 at 22:42:45

A folding powerbomb, at least in my understanding, is a powerbomb where you fold the other guys legs over his head for a pinning attempt at the end
I believe you are correct Carzilla.  I can't imagine what else it could be.  By the way, this move is the true jack-knife powerbomb.  And unlike Kevin Nash, you don't have to blow your knee out to do it. ;D
xsouporheroxPosted on 06/14/04 at 23:06:49

This is a Shining Wizard.

http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4219473&a=31285024&p=68489923&f=0
PulsarPosted on 06/15/04 at 06:11:30

I seem to remember a man in ECW who used to Tomikaze named Tom something, which is how it got it's name. Tom + Kamikaze
americamamushiPosted on 06/15/04 at 07:37:26

Tommy Rogers is the one that called it the Tomikaze i believe.
Scott W. BreonPosted on 06/15/04 at 16:26:29

Yes, Tommy Rogers (one of the original members of the Fantastics from the 1980's, when tag-team wrestling was actually good in North America!!!!) *note: not that I'm saying it's not good today, but it seems there are way too many "makeshift" tag teams today and not enough tag teams that stick together for years, unless their related like the Harris Boys
xsouporheroxPosted on 06/15/04 at 17:42:35

Tag team wrestling isn't seen as a draw anymore. Tag teams now are just a place to put guys that aren't ready to be singles stars yet.
Scott W. BreonPosted on 06/15/04 at 18:06:37

True, so true, unless it's in Lucha (and most likely it's 3 man teams), tag team wrestling is not as big a draw as it once was. I also agree about the not being ready to be singles stars yet thing as well. Unless you count The Rock 'n' Sock connection or the "BROTHERS OF DESTRUCTION", I can't name too many tag teams in recent years where one or both of the wrestlers were major singles players
xsouporheroxPosted on 06/15/04 at 18:32:03

But by having teams made of two big singles stars, you book yourself into a corner where you can't have a straight tag team beat them without making them look weak. If tag teams were portrayed these days as being great in a tag team, but lackluster in singles action, it'd work. But instead you have 'star power' tag teams that totally kill the integrity of the division.
phudjiePosted on 06/15/04 at 22:14:54

On 06/14/04 at 22:42:45, americamamushi wrote:

I believe you are correct Carzilla. I can't imagine what else it could be. By the way, this move is the true jack-knife powerbomb. And unlike Kevin Nash, you don't have to blow your knee out to do it. ;D
.....I thought that a jack-knife powerbomb was were the executer of the move did a front flip over the victim will holding their legs for a pin attempt.....
americamamushiPosted on 06/15/04 at 23:40:10

It is, maybe I missunderstood what Carlizza was describing.  I've been real scatterbrained lately for some reason...