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Oh Yeah more stuff...

DominusPosted on 09/13/03 at 02:43:27

Three-way and four-way gimmick matches
Do the wrestlers still have to Tag the other wrestlers in? or are all the wrestler's in the ring at once?

Introduction of no contests
How does this affect the ratings?  Do the wrestler's get a draw then, or just nothing happens to their ratings?

Head referee
What is the purpose of this?  What's so special about a head referee?

Injuries are now indicated during the match and may cut it short
So is the match ruled a no contest if one of the wrestlers can not continue due to injury?  Or does that wrestler automatically win?  And what category would that fall under?  Pinfall, Submission, KO?

Prematch injuries influence matches
How does a wrestler wrestle if he's already injured?  Do you mean if he's scheduled more then once to fight in a card and he gets injured in his first match?  Or is it when you force a wrestler to fight even though he's out with an injury?

Schedule tournaments which are seeded according to the ratings
In a 16 Man Tournament would #1 take on #16 then?
then #2 vs #15?  And if #1 lost, #2 would then take on #16 (because he is the lowest ranked wrestler?)

Mask Spots
What happens when a wrestler loses their mask??  Are we supposed to give away their identidy or something?  Or do they just hide away from the "Camera"??  What about an option where you could check if a wrestler's mask, no mater what never comes off.  Like with Kane or some of the Japanese wrestlers, who know matter how hard the others try, they always seem to keep the masks on.  I only mention this because I like the idea of having masks come off, I just don't want some of my wrestlers to lose their masks....

Sorry about all the questions.  Just thought I should get a rundown on what more of the options do, before I have to go through them myself and run in to problems.

doors11Posted on 09/13/03 at 08:18:53

Those are great questions   I hope someone can answer
all of these..I'd like to know  too
trellianPosted on 09/13/03 at 10:35:03

Speaking of no contest matches, I had a strange experience here the other day. In a First Blood Match between Eddie Guerrero and Chris Jericho, Y2J started to bleed when he was Frog splashed through a table on the outside. To my surprise, the match continued. Y2J threw Eddie into the steel rail, and he as well started to bleed. They then entered the ring, and the ref called it a no-contest! Why?
DominusPosted on 09/13/03 at 13:02:59

Very interesting about the First Blood contest.  I think the ref doesn't call the bout unless the wrestlers are in the ring.  So even if they are bleeding outside the ring, the first wrestler to step into the ring and is bleeding will lose... So if they both went into the ring at the same time, I see how it could be a no contest.  But I don't really know how the first blood match works in TNM.  Maybe Oliver can explain.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 09/13/03 at 19:00:26

Three-way and four-way gimmick matches
Do the wrestlers still have to Tag the other wrestlers in? or are all the wrestler's in the ring at once?
I believe they still have to tag in and out.

Introduction of no contests
How does this affect the ratings?  Do the wrestler's get a draw then, or just nothing happens to their ratings?
Not sure.  I imagine they either count as a draw, or not at all.  No contest means no decision was made, after all.

Head referee
What is the purpose of this?  What's so special about a head referee?
I'm actually not sure about this either.  It's possible that it's a flag in there for future use.  Or it could affect the probability of that referee replacing a bumped ref.

Injuries are now indicated during the match and may cut it short
So is the match ruled a no contest if one of the wrestlers can not continue due to injury?  Or does that wrestler automatically win?  And what category would that fall under?  Pinfall, Submission, KO?
I've never seen this.  I have seen wrestlers get injured in matches, but they generally finish them after it says something is wrong.  Haven't had one that was bad enough to stop the match yet.

Prematch injuries influence matches
How does a wrestler wrestle if he's already injured?  Do you mean if he's scheduled more then once to fight in a card and he gets injured in his first match?  Or is it when you force a wrestler to fight even though he's out with an injury?
Forcing an injured competitor to wrestle is an option put in by Oliver to keep from totally screwing up your plans right before a major show.If you're going to be strictly realistic about your circuit, you should probably not use it.  If you do use it, the injured wrestler fights below his normal strength, and I believe there may be a greater chance of further injury.

Schedule tournaments which are seeded according to the ratings
In a 16 Man Tournament would #1 take on #16 then?
then #2 vs #15?  And if #1 lost, #2 would then take on #16 (because he is the lowest ranked wrestler?)
Once the seeded tournament is booked, I doubt that it'll change based on other matches on the card.  But I'm not 100% sure on that.

Mask Spots
What happens when a wrestler loses their mask??  Are we supposed to give away their identidy or something?  Or do they just hide away from the "Camera"??  What about an option where you could check if a wrestler's mask, no mater what never comes off.  Like with Kane or some of the Japanese wrestlers, who know matter how hard the others try, they always seem to keep the masks on.  I only mention this because I like the idea of having masks come off, I just don't want some of my wrestlers to lose their masks....
Oliver and I talked about this while SE was still in production.  There are a bunch of possibilities, ranging from the wrestler knocking down his opponent and taking the mask back to added heat for the de-maksed and/or demasker, to the de-masked wrestler running to the back hiding his face.  The match could also just go on as normal, or there could be a major shift in momentum.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
John ProulxPosted on 09/13/03 at 19:59:21

I can clarify come of these based on experience...

On 09/13/03 at 19:00:26, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:I believe they still have to tag in and out.
Yes.

On 09/13/03 at 19:00:26, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:Forcing an injured competitor to wrestle is an option put in by Oliver to keep from totally screwing up your plans right before a major show.If you're going to be strictly realistic about your circuit, you should probably not use it.  If you do use it, the injured wrestler fights below his normal strength, and I believe there may be a greater chance of further injury.
Oliver has confirmed that injured wrestlers do stand a greater risk of additional injury, yes.

On 09/13/03 at 19:00:26, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:Once the seeded tournament is booked, I doubt that it'll change based on other matches on the card.  But I'm not 100% sure on that.
Once the brackets are fixed, they do not change, so if #1 loses to #16, #16 will go on to wrestle the winner of #8 vs. #9 (a la the NCAA basketball tournament) . I will note that I haven't yet figured out how the seedings are determined if you remove people from the brackets and replace them before the beginning of the tournament, which is something I'd like to know myself :) .
91Posted on 09/14/03 at 00:27:07

A 16 man tournament, going by what Oliver said, should go as follows.

1 vs 16
8 vs 9
5 vs 12
4 vs 13
3 vs 14
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
2 vs 15

It's always based on the top seeds getting the easiest matches, and the order of the matches is based on the presumption that the favourite will win each match (which of course is mathematically unlikely to actually happen in a large tournament) and then in the next round the top seeds would face the easiest of the remainding participants, lather, rinse, repeat until the final.
DominusPosted on 09/14/03 at 01:19:11

So like the NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs work... Haha probably not many Canadians here, but it's the only tournament that I can think of that resembles this one.

so this is how the brackets would look:

Now the # that are in BOLD won their match...

1 vs 16
2 vs 15
3 vs 14
4 vs13
5 vs 12
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9

So then the 2nd round would look like this???:

1 vs 14
2 vs 11
4 vs 10
5 vs 9

Then the 3rd round would be this?:

4 vs 14
9 vs 11

then the finals:

9 vs 14

??????????????? Is that how it would go? Or would you still be ranked by brackets like this:


1 vs 8
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 5

Winner of (1vs8) vs Winner of (2vs7)
Winner of (3vs6) vs Winner of (4vs5)

and so forth?
91Posted on 09/14/03 at 01:54:39

Nonono, the way I ordered it was the correct way. If we pick the same winners that you did, we'd get...

1 vs 16
8 vs 9
5 vs 12
4 vs 13
3 vs 14
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
2 vs 15

1 vs 9
5 vs 4
14 vs 11
10 vs 2

And so on.
DominusPosted on 09/14/03 at 02:32:16

So basically all TNM does is pick the wrestlers in this fashion:

1, 16, 2, 15, 3, 14, 4, 13, 5, 12, 6, 11, 7, 10, 8 , 9

And it basically is elimination style after that.

Winner of 1 vs 16 would face winner of 2 vs 15.  So even if #1 and #2 won, they would face off.  (kind of dumb, being that you'd be eliminating one of the top contenders so early...)
John ProulxPosted on 09/14/03 at 06:38:22

On 09/14/03 at 02:32:16, Dominus wrote:So basically all TNM does is pick the wrestlers in this fashion:

1, 16, 2, 15, 3, 14, 4, 13, 5, 12, 6, 11, 7, 10, 8 , 9

And it basically is elimination style after that.

Winner of 1 vs 16 would face winner of 2 vs 15.  So even if #1 and #2 won, they would face off.  (kind of dumb, being that you'd be eliminating one of the top contenders so early...)
OK, I'll assume you're not being obtuse here and try it another way. Let me see if I can do this visually...

If you're familiar with the NCAA basketball tournament, it uses the same bracketing system. It goes something like this:

1   \____
16 /......\___
.........../.....\
8   \___/.......\
9   /..............\____
.................../......\
5   \____....../........\
12 /......\___/..........\
.........../.................\
4   \___/...................\
13 /..........................\
................................\__Winner__
3   \____..................../
14 /......\___............../
.........../.....\............/
6   \___/.......\........../
11 /..............\_____/
.................../
7   \____....../
10 /......\___/
.........../
2   \___/
15 /

(Please ignore the periods. I used those for spacing only.)

I don't know how that looks to you, Dominus, but essentially, the winner of the first match (1 vs. 16) faces the winner of the second match (8 vs. 9) in round 2. The winner of the third match (5 vs. 12) faces the winner of the fourth match (4 vs. 13), and then the winner of that faces the winner of the 1/16/8/9 group in the semi-finals. Then it goes on like that through the rest of the list. Under this system, numbers 1 and 2 cannot meet until the finals of the tournament.

Hope this helps.
DominusPosted on 09/14/03 at 14:43:57

I understand that, but how the hell do they get that order??? It looks almost random.

1 vs 16
8 vs 9

5 vs 12
4 vs 13

3 vs 14
6 vs 11

7 vs 10
2 vs 15

I mean it all makes sense on who they face:

1 vs 16
2 vs 15
3 vs 14
4 vs 13
5 vs 12
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9


But in the order they are bracketed I am unaware on how they came up with that concept. I don't watch NCAA so I must be missing something. I've tried to figure out why it's like this.... and this is what I come up with:

They put the top 2 teams at the top and bottom, then the next 2 (#8) underneath the top spot and (#7) above the bottom spot, then next 2 spots, #5 below #8 and #6 above #7, then #4 and #3 to fill in the middle.
Then just place the last 8 spots (#9-#16) in order from Highest spot mathced to lowest spot (ala: #1-#16, #2-#15, #3-#14 etc...)

1==============|
8==========|.......|
.........................|......|
5=======|......|......|
4=====|...|......|......|
+.......|...|......|......|
3=====|...|......|......|
6=======|......|......|
.........................|......|
7==========|.......|
2==============|

Sorry best grid I could make at this short time, haha :P


I think I get it now... haha Took me awhile to figure out how that worked. I never seen a tournamanet like this, I'll have to run one like this soon...
DominusPosted on 09/14/03 at 16:13:13

Ok Some more stuff for Oliver.

If the 3Way and 4Corner matches are not available to be true Triple Threat and Fatal FourWay Matches then with the Battle Royal Options, can you use Gimicks??? And what about Tag Teams during a battle royal with a gimmick or battle royal with no Top Rope Eliminations, can you assign things like Ladder, Cage or Pin Falls Anywhere?

Also I thought I read somewhere about Wrestler's being able to be Special Refs. So can you choose who they are biased against? Like say it was Bret Hart vs Undertaker match with Stone Cold as Special Ref, but all three wrestlers are face. But Stone Cold hates Hart, would he be more biased against him then, or would any of the Queues have any effects on anything?

And what about Wrestler's as managers? I thought I read that somewhere too. Well like if 1 member of a tag team is wrestling, then his partner might come down to the ring with him.  Or can you make a manager with the same name as a wrestler & TNM will understand that they are the same person, or will it screw things up like:

Effecting interference on both cases? Like if Stone Cold was the ref, could he come down to ringside (because he is in Bret Hart's Queue) and interfere against Bret Hart, even though he's the ref of the match?? :o or if a manager or even wrestler/manager were to come to ringside to attack a wrestler, even though he's already at ringside managing!!!??????

Oliver CoppPosted on 09/14/03 at 16:50:20

On 09/13/03 at 02:43:27, Dominus wrote:Three-way and four-way gimmick matches
Do the wrestlers still have to Tag the other wrestlers in? or are all the wrestler's in the ring at once?
Yes, they do. I changed the code to allow for using gimmick matches with more than two teams in a match. Redesigning for Texas Tornado rules would have meant starting over, though, because the engine only supports them if there are no alliances (e.g. in Battle Royals).


Introduction of no contests
How does this affect the ratings? Do the wrestler's get a draw then, or just nothing happens to their ratings?
It should count as a draw for both. However, you have brought it to my attention that in some cases, a draw isn't awarded which is wrong.


Head referee
What is the purpose of this? What's so special about a head referee?
He is more likely to run out in case of a referee being KOed. Also, in the future, the head referee will be auto-assigned to the final match of every card.


Injuries are now indicated during the match and may cut it short
So is the match ruled a no contest if one of the wrestlers can not continue due to injury? Or does that wrestler automatically win? And what category would that fall under? Pinfall, Submission, KO?
There are five ways this can affect a match, one of which is a no-contest. All others will lead to a regular finish.


Prematch injuries influence matches
How does a wrestler wrestle if he's already injured? Do you mean if he's scheduled more then once to fight in a card and he gets injured in his first match? Or is it when you force a wrestler to fight even though he's out with an injury?
It means both. Wrestlers with injuries are prone to suffer even more injuries and will in almost all cases not perform up to par.


Schedule tournaments which are seeded according to the ratings
In a 16 Man Tournament would #1 take on #16 then?
then #2 vs #15? And if #1 lost, #2 would then take on #16 (because he is the lowest ranked wrestler?)
First question - yes, #1 will take on #16 and #2 will take on #15. However, the logic in the second question is backwards :-). #1 and #2 will always start on opposite ends of the tournament so that the earliest possible time they can wrestle is in the finals.


Mask Spots
What happens when a wrestler loses their mask?? Are we supposed to give away their identidy or something? Or do they just hide away from the "Camera"?? What about an option where you could check if a wrestler's mask, no mater what never comes off. Like with Kane or some of the Japanese wrestlers, who know matter how hard the others try, they always seem to keep the masks on. I only mention this because I like the idea of having masks come off, I just don't want some of my wrestlers to lose their masks....
Good idea. Added it to the wishlist. Losing one's mask can also have three possible effects which I won't spoil :-)
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/14/03 at 17:00:34

On 09/14/03 at 14:43:57, Dominus wrote:I understand that, but how the hell do they get that order??? It looks almost random.
It ain't random, it's complete induction - math, if you will.

The key to understanding how the seeding is done is to work bottom-up.

A two-man tournament will only have one match:

#1 vs #2

If you want a four-man tournament, you will have to assume that #1 vs #2 will be in the finals. Using seeding logic (equal sum in all matches: number of participants + 1), you'll end up with:

#1 vs ?? (sum=4+1=5)
#2 vs ?? (sum=4+1=5)

That evaluates to:

#1 vs #4
#2 vs #3

Expanding it further, you get:

#1 vs ??
#4 vs ??
#2 vs ??
#3 vs ??

Knowing that the sum must be 9, it'll turn out like this:

#1 vs #8
#4 vs #5
#2 vs #7
#3 vs #6

Continue this ad infinitum :-)
DominusPosted on 09/15/03 at 00:11:25

If you want a four-man tournament, you will have to assume that #1 vs #2 will be in the finals. Using seeding logic (equal sum in all matches: number of participants + 1), you'll end up with:

#1 vs ?? (sum=4+1=5)
#2 vs ?? (sum=4+1=5)
Umm so you mean

#1 vs ?? (sum=#ofWrestlersInTournament+1- OponentRanking?)

so like this for a 16 Man:

#1 vs (16+1-1)=#16
#3 vs (16+1-3)=#14
#5 vs (16+1-5)=#12
#7 vs (16+1-7)=#10
#8 vs (16+1-8)=#9
#6 vs (16+1-6)=#11
#4 vs (16+1-4)=#13
#2 vs (16+1-2)=#15
DominusPosted on 09/15/03 at 00:35:48

I was looking for this, and I wasn't sure where I posted it, but Oliver could you answer me these questions:

Ok Some more stuff for Oliver.

If the 3Way and 4Corner matches are not available to be true Triple Threat and Fatal FourWay Matches then with the Battle Royal Options, can you use Gimicks  And what about Tag Teams during a battle royal with a gimmick or battle royal with no Top Rope Eliminations, can you assign things like Ladder, Cage or Pin Falls Anywhere?

Also I thought I read somewhere about Wrestler's being able to be Special Refs.  So can you choose who they are biased against?  Like say it was Bret Hart vs Undertaker match with Stone Cold as Special Ref, but all three wrestlers are face.  But Stone Cold hates Hart, would he be more biased against him then, or would any of the Queues have any effects on anything?

And what about Wrestler's as managers?  I thought I read that somewhere too.  Well like if 1 member of a tag team is wrestling, then his partner might come down to the ring with him.  Or can you make a manager with the same name as a wrestler & TNM will understand that they are the same person, or will it screw things up like:

Effecting interference on both cases?  Like if Stone Cold was the ref, could he come down to ringside (because he is in Bret Hart's Queue) and interfere against Bret Hart, even though he's the ref of the match??    or if a manager or even wrestler/manager were to come to ringside to attack a wrestler, even though he's already at ringside managing!!!

Also I heard talks about tag teams turning on each other.  But this isn't implemented in TNM is it?
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/16/03 at 07:17:12


If the 3Way and 4Corner matches are not available to be true Triple Threat and Fatal FourWay Matches then with the Battle Royal Options, can you use Gimicks  And what about Tag Teams during a battle royal with a gimmick or battle royal with no Top Rope Eliminations, can you assign things like Ladder, Cage or Pin Falls Anywhere?  
I need to add some code for testing if this is an option at all. Maybe it can be worked, maybe it can't. Will have to check.


Also I thought I read somewhere about Wrestler's being able to be Special Refs.  So can you choose who they are biased against?  Like say it was Bret Hart vs Undertaker match with Stone Cold as Special Ref, but all three wrestlers are face.  But Stone Cold hates Hart, would he be more biased against him then, or would any of the Queues have any effects on anything?  
When you create a special referee, you can assign him to be a face or a heel. Conversely, he will be biased against faces if he's a heel. Faces usually don't act that biased.


And what about Wrestler's as managers?  I thought I read that somewhere too.  Well like if 1 member of a tag team is wrestling, then his partner might come down to the ring with him.  Or can you make a manager with the same name as a wrestler & TNM will understand that they are the same person, or will it screw things up like:  
You can make the entire roster as managers and it won't affect things adversely. The "wrestlers as managers" request didn't get implemented because internally, TNM would have to add the wrestler to the manager database temporarily which is unsafe in cases where you don't run a card through to the end and/or have multiple open cards in multiple circuits and/or add real managers while such cards are in progress.

 
Effecting interference on both cases?  Like if Stone Cold was the ref, could he come down to ringside (because he is in Bret Hart's Queue) and interfere against Bret Hart, even though he's the ref of the match??    or if a manager or even wrestler/manager were to come to ringside to attack a wrestler, even though he's already at ringside managing!!!  
If a wrestler is in a match, he will be taken out of the list of managers for the match. If he's a referee, this isn't done, same thing if you're scheduling him to interfere.


Also I heard talks about tag teams turning on each other.  But this isn't implemented in TNM is it?
It's never been and for the record is very unlikely ever to happen.
DominusPosted on 09/16/03 at 21:56:57

If a wrestler is in a match, he will be taken out of the list of managers for the match. If he's a referee, this isn't done, same thing if you're scheduling him to interfere.
Ok I'm unsure with some things. Like the quote above. For example lets say Stone Cold is a Special Guest Ref in a match against Undertaker and Bret Hart. Stone Cold just wrestled Bret Hart last card and they are both in each other's queues.

a) So what if TNM decides that Stone Cold will interfere against Bret Hart during the match? Or will TNM know that the referee is the same Stone Cold that is in the wrestlers database?

b) Because Bret is in Stone Cold's queue and vice-versa, will this effect how they interact (Stone Cold's Pin Counts, Bret Hart attacking referee Stone Cold etc...) with each other during that match?


Also with the manager thing. If I want Ric Flair to come to the ring when Triple H wrestles, do I have to make a manager named Ric Flair? What will TNM do then if I schedule, a match with Triple H/Flair vs Animal/Hawk, and I forgot to remove Ric Flair as a manager for Triple H? Will it just crash or will TNM think there is 2 Ric Flair's at Ringside? haha Heck if I added a Ric Flair as a special referee and then added interference of Ric Flair against Animal/Hawk, there could be a total of 4 "Ric Flairs" at ringside at onetime right??? :P
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/16/03 at 22:47:51

a) The program will know.

b) See above.

If Flair were to team with Triple H, he wouldn't be coming to the ring as a manager, obviously :)
StoneC0ldPosted on 09/27/03 at 10:39:16

re: tag team member turning on the other...

On , Oliver Copp
It's never been and for the record is very unlikely ever to happen./ wrote:

Maybe I'm just missing something because I still haven't sent my order for SE yet, but how about just allowing us to book a spot by one member against his/her teammate, instead of assuming that member will only ever hit his/her opponent....  

So, you can then book wrestler A to execute a move or finisher on wrestler B,  and then wrestler C (on the opposing team) pin wrestler B for the win.

Even if that's not possible, there's another way.....  Suppose you want team A to break up, with wrestler 2 turning on wrestler 1.  Run the match, booking team B to win, getting a pinfall over wrestler 1.  Use post-match comments or the interview integrator to sell the team breakup.  After the card is over, use the circuit editor (or whatever plugin allows editing match finishes) to creatively insert a few lines of text to add the turn. :)  Then delete the tag team from the database once the card is finished.

Oliver CoppPosted on 09/28/03 at 09:47:57

Booking turns is a good idea. The engine can't handle it but it could be extended to allow for them to happen. My questione numero uno is: would it be sensible for them ONLY to happen in booked scenarios or should there be random turns as well?

I'm just trying to get the ball rolling on this discussion-wise. I'm not saying it will be implemented imminently. The more we discuss in the beginning, the better it'll be when it does get implemented.
rptDX316Posted on 09/28/03 at 13:36:19

Booking turns would probably be the better solution, as a random turn could end up being a real pain in the backside.

Imagine if you wanted to keep a team together all the time, only for them to randomly turn on each other.  That would be incredibly frustrating for the person booking the federation.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 09/28/03 at 21:14:43

On 09/28/03 at 09:47:57, Oliver Copp wrote:Booking turns is a good idea. The engine can't handle it but it could be extended to allow for them to happen. My questione numero uno is: would it be sensible for them ONLY to happen in booked scenarios or should there be random turns as well?

I'm just trying to get the ball rolling on this discussion-wise. I'm not saying it will be implemented imminently. The more we discuss in the beginning, the better it'll be when it does get implemented.
While I personally like the idea of random turns, if you put it in there it should definately be possible to turn it off.  Because a lot of people have very specific storylines in mind as they work their circuits, while others enjoy a bit of randomness thrown in to keep things unpredictable.

Maybe you could make it so that face/face and heel/heel tag teams had a very very small chance of turns and miscommunication spots, while teams made up of wrestlers of different alignments would have that sort of thing happen much more often?  And an off switch to let those in favor of booking everything themselves not have t deal with it.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"