On 05/29/03 at 07:00:17, H8-Superstar wrote:Remember two years ago of hype claiming it will "blow TNM 7 and EWR out of the water?" It turn into biggest vaporware since N64DD system. Here's the news on it.

http://www.scotsmanality.com/article.php?story=2003052322374218

On 06/05/03 at 21:44:16, Adam_Jennings wrote:
Now to Oliver - I respect your work on the TNM series, and you're obviously a very talented programmer. What I don't like is your general negative attitude towards the freeware games. To say something isn't worth making unless its 100% realistic is ludicrous. Every single game in existence substitutes a certain amount of realism, its what makes the games fun. When it comes to promoter sims, if they were made as a 100% true reflection of real life, they'd be no fun to play at all. Most people would probably get ill from stress trying to play them rather than enjoying them. Does that mean they shouldn't be made? Of course not. A lot of people are getting a lot of enjoyment from Adam Ryland's EWR series. That itself makes the game a success, creates a community and gives a lot of people things to do in their spare time. For you to say that they don't do anybody any good is madness.

Instead of stamping on every newcomer because they don't straight away match the highest standard, they should be encouraged. Its only through completing their first attempt that they'll be able to learn from it and improve the next time. Things have to be given time to grow. The attitude of 'this game isn't as good as this one, so what's the point in it being made' is the quickest way to kill the whole genre. Its those very games which will eventually set the new standard, IF they are given the encouragement and time to develop that they need.

- You make money using WWE trademarks, so I'm guessing you must have some kind of agreement with WWE. Maybe you've been asked before, if so I apologise, but would you mind filling me in on how you've addressed the trademark issue?

- You said on the PWSE forums about how you disassembled some freeware games and found they were mainly just randomised. Could you tell us which ones you did this to? Obviously, there are several different levels of sim around, and if you've only chosen some beginners sims, it isn't really giving a fair impression.

I don't make money using WWE trademarks. All wrestler data is provided free of charge. What I am selling works completely independently from any and all copyrighted material. There is an agreement, though, on which I won't comment because there's exactly two parties whose business it is.

On 06/05/03 at 21:44:16, Adam_Jennings wrote:


As the creator of the Promotion Wars games, I'd like to make a few comments.

I don't know where you are quoting from, but I certainly never claimed any of my games were going to blow anything out of the water. I simply gave the facts on what to expect from the game. If people choose to get excited from that and make statements like the one you mention, there isn't much I can do about it. For you to use that against the game isn't really fair.

As for your source on PW2 being cancelled - you've chosen one of the least reliable sources for truthful information in existence. The Scotsman has a personal issue with me, for whatever reason, and has taken to writing complete fiction about me and the Promotion Wars games on his site. Unfortunately there are people who don't know what type of person he is, and they take what he says as being the truth.

Now to Oliver - I respect your work on the TNM series, and you're obviously a very talented programmer. What I don't like is your general negative attitude towards the freeware games. To say something isn't worth making unless its 100% realistic is ludicrous. Every single game in existence substitutes a certain amount of realism, its what makes the games fun. When it comes to promoter sims, if they were made as a 100% true reflection of real life, they'd be no fun to play at all. Most people would probably get ill from stress trying to play them rather than enjoying them. Does that mean they shouldn't be made? Of course not. A lot of people are getting a lot of enjoyment from Adam Ryland's EWR series. That itself makes the game a success, creates a community and gives a lot of people things to do in their spare time. For you to say that they don't do anybody any good is madness.

Instead of stamping on every newcomer because they don't straight away match the highest standard, they should be encouraged. Its only through completing their first attempt that they'll be able to learn from it and improve the next time. Things have to be given time to grow. The attitude of 'this game isn't as good as this one, so what's the point in it being made' is the quickest way to kill the whole genre. Its those very games which will eventually set the new standard, IF they are given the encouragement and time to develop that they need.

And finally, a couple of questions to Oliver which I posted at PWSE but haven't had a reply on-

- You make money using WWE trademarks, so I'm guessing you must have some kind of agreement with WWE. Maybe you've been asked before, if so I apologise, but would you mind filling me in on how you've addressed the trademark issue?

- You said on the PWSE forums about how you disassembled some freeware games and found they were mainly just randomised. Could you tell us which ones you did this to? Obviously, there are several different levels of sim around, and if you've only chosen some beginners sims, it isn't really giving a fair impression.

On 06/06/03 at 09:50:45, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:
Hey Adam. First of all, welcome to the boards here. Given the fact that you're the developer of a rival simulator, I don't know that it's too likely that you'll be hanging around here much once your curiosity is satisfied, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to say hello anyway.

I don't want to put words into Oliver's mouth, because he's more than capable of explaining his own points of view, and probably has a far better idea of what they might be than I do anyway. ;) However, I've personally interpreted his comments here about business sims as more of an "I wouldn't feel comfortable releasing something if I knew it wasn't realistic" than an "All simulators that lack realism inherantly suck." Different people prefer different levels of abstraction and realism. Oliver admitted that he didn't feel that he could make a program that could reach his own standards for such things before commenting that he hadn't seen any others that did so either.

Thanks for setting a positive tone here. The last thing we need is hostility towards others :)

I think it makes the process of playing the game a lot more meaningful if you know the basics have been carefully worked on, rather than just making the screens look nice and offering X types of matches. I fear a lot of the new sim authors give the formulas etc a lot less thought than superficial elements. I'll agree that if they all do this, and continue to neglect the foundation of the game while adding 'bells and whistles', it isn't a good thing.

I won't claim to be completely innocent in that area, but I do put a lot of thought into creating causes and effects as realistically as I can. Some elements I rely on randomness, but its always something I look to improve on when making future versions.

I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't express an opinion on freeware sims because he charges for TNM, I was just concerned that if they are looked on in a negative light by someone in as high a position as you, it may turn some people away from both making and playing the games.

Just in case anybody misinterprets me - don't think for a second that I would compare TNM to Promotion Wars. I know my programming ability is limited and that I'm pretty much still a beginner. You wouldn't believe how many people jump on me and say things like "who do you think you are, thinking PW is anywhere near as good as TNM" etc etc.

On 06/06/03 at 19:00:35, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:This thread seems to be turning into a "Who's who of the wrestling simulator world" rather quickly.

Weird.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"

On 06/06/03 at 18:36:35, Scotsman wrote:Good luck with PW2 BTW.

Ah Oliver...you're always good for a laugh ;D

On 06/06/03 at 21:01:53, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:Ah, Zeus...

Should the fact that I made Zeus a Main Eventer for about a month and gave him my promotion's second highest title make me feel dirty?

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"

On 06/06/03 at 18:54:13, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:

Not a problem. We're adults here, after all. :) Rational arguments and constructive criticism generally seem to get better reactions than flames, so why waste my time with the latter when I've got the the former to share?

As for the continuing issue of realism, I agree up to a point. However, given the fact that there's a demand for Wrestling business sims, I'd consider that a certain level of abstraction of details is inevitable, unavoidable, and probably constructive to the gameplay experience even if realism suffers in comparison.

This brings an interesting thought to mind. You have a certain amount of experience in the business. Maybe you could write a column for PWSE or somesuch trying to explain some of the factors that are often overlooked, and give a rough ballpark figure for what these things would cost a company like WWE? By doing that, you could probably do the wrestling simulator community a favor by helping them to boost their realism to a higher level, even if it is just through the addition of an "assorted overhead costs" variable added in to the income of shows, etc that scales with promotion size or somesuch. Just a thought. A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, but it's better than no knowledge at all. :)

On 06/06/03 at 23:34:27, Oliver Copp wrote:

Eric, I never said my obsession with realism was healthy ;-). That said, it shouldn't surprise you that I agree with you on the fact that abstractions need to be made in order to keep things enjoyable as opposed to crazy.

Yet still: no matter what abstractions are made, it's IMO only prudent to make them if you stay in the same ballpark.

For instance, if you run a major house show that is being taped for later release on video or DVD, you're looking at roughly $200,000 (assuming commentary is done in post-pro as opposed to live-to-tape). The same show as a live shot with all the bells and whistles costs at least $350,000 up to $800,000 for WrestleMania level.

That's just production cost, mind you. All talent, transportation, rent and so on goes on top.

If one tried to simplify it in some way (abstract), you could of course say that $200,000 would be ok for a basic shoot with a live shoot costing in the $350k to $800k ballpark.

But even that would be a false assumption because it also depends greatly on the arena you're running in. Setting up proper lighting can cost up to $60,000 for an arena holding 20,000 and explodes disproportionally the more people fit into the arena. If the Skydome hadn't already had state-of-the-art lighting, WWE would have had to invest upwards of $250,000 for lighting alone for WrestleMania last year.

Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent. The gist is that once you try to simplify, you end up creating something that isn't even a remotely close reflection of reality. I see your point, though, that simplification may be a must sometimes.

As far as the suggestion of writing a column goes, as flattering as the idea is, it isn't going to happen because I wouldn't know where to start. I could easily write a book of 800 pages just on the basics of promoting wrestling shows, what money goes where, what kind of staff you need and why and so on. You know what the scary part is ? That would cover maybe 10 percent of what is relevant... because that's all I know. WWE has a staff of 15 which does nothing else than negotiate arena contracts and provide estimates on production costs and revenues for every event that is run.

If you add up all the relevant areas a sim would have to at least touch upon, you'd be talking about the condensed business knowledge of roughly 100 to 150 people having to be instilled into it.

If you started really small and simple, a business sim writer would have to realistically know the following:

* how much rent the various arenas around the world ask for per shot,
* what "production modifier" needs to be associated with every arena (depending on things such as lighting, the sound system and so on); values could be anywhere from $50,000 to $500,000,
* the exact positions of these arenas and how far they are apart - after all, you need to get your wrestlers, talent and equipment from one place to the other,
* how television contracts typically are structured,
* what the PPV universe is, how it is structured and what splitting usually is done between the company providing the content and the technology,
* ...

As simple as it sounds on the surface, gathering all this information alone would take upwards of a year... if you're lucky and you get it at all.

On 06/07/03 at 05:04:02, psz wrote:Heh, he hasn't even factored in Legal Fees (if needed), Insurance, Local Taxes/fees (Which, depending on where you are, can be quite cheap or a total rip off), State Taxes/fees, passports (where needed), liscenses, merchandising (Profit and R&D costs), etc etc etc... You think your brain hurts NOW? ;->