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Special moves

King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 05/20/03 at 16:48:24

Just a quick note about special moves. Kurt Angle in my database has "executes the Angle Slam" as his special move, but in some instances when he uses this, the ref calls for a DQ. Can I just stress now that the illegal option has been left unchecked. Does this happen to anybody else?

Also, a suggestion for later builds of TNM7 could be that you can book a match to finish with a wrestler's special move.

Thanks for reading.
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/20/03 at 18:29:58

This sounds pretty screwed up... I'll have to look at the code to get to the bottom of this. Yet, I find it hard to believe that a BUG (with a capital "B") like this would make it through several years without being noticed and/or fixed.

More when I find out.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/21/03 at 07:52:44

I've seen the same thing, actually.

Hollywood Hogan got DQ'ed after he "Hulks up, no-sells, and hits the Big Leg Drop."  It wasn't illegal and it wasn't supposed to set up the finisher.

Maybe the ref decided Hogan had convinced his opponent to throw the match and DQ'ed the Hulkster accordingly.  ;)

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Yet_Another_MikePosted on 05/21/03 at 10:23:57

I've personally never had this problem, but I came across this a couple of days ago on Josh Liller's page, so I guess it has happened to others:

Illegal
Check this if the wrestler's special move is illegal. This doesn't always work right in TNM, so you will occasionally see a wrestler get DQed for using their special move even if it isn't illegal.

This was in the wrestler creation guide he has posted.
phudjiePosted on 05/21/03 at 11:35:59

.....I've had problems with the special move field as long as I have had TNM7, so much so that I just decided to forego it and edited my database accordingly.....
91Posted on 05/22/03 at 01:26:35

On 05/21/03 at 07:52:44, Critic_of_the_Dawn wrote:I've seen the same thing, actually.

Hollywood Hogan got DQ'ed after he "Hulks up, no-sells, and hits the Big Leg Drop." It wasn't illegal and it wasn't supposed to set up the finisher.

Maybe the ref decided Hogan had convinced his opponent to throw the match and DQ'ed the Hulkster accordingly. ;)

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
I think I'd be tempted to DQ Hogan for that just out of spite.

But yes, I vaguely remember seeing that happen once years ago and it never coming up again since. Strange that one.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/22/03 at 07:43:44

On 05/22/03 at 01:26:35, 91 wrote:

I think I'd be tempted to DQ Hogan for that just out of spite.

But yes, I vaguely remember seeing that happen once years ago and it never coming up again since. Strange that one.
Yeah, my main theory was that the referee was actually a disgruntled member of the Internet Wrestling Community desperate to keep Hogan from burying another opponent.  ;D

That's the only time I can recall seeing that sort of thing happen, but I could be forgetting something, I suppose...

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
LillaThrillaPosted on 05/23/03 at 21:14:47

I've been hearing about it and having it happen to me over the years as well.  It's like the most annoying bug in TNM7, just because its such a "phantom" problem.  Not consistent at all it seems...
Tom_ImpPosted on 05/24/03 at 20:18:56

I haven't had the problem with people getting DQ'd when they shouldn't, but I have noticed when using The Great Muta his special move can lead to a DQ and 9 times out of 10 he never seems to. Guess he's very sneaky and does it when the ref isn't looking.   ;)
91Posted on 05/25/03 at 17:54:26

If he was stupid enough to get caught every time, they'd call him The Average Muta.
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/25/03 at 23:12:31

LOL re: Average Muta ;-)

I'm getting to the bottom of this slowly but surely. The thing is: nothing in the code of this particular decision branch has inconsistent values... I had it run 500,000 test matches with different wrestlers making use of the special move field and the way things were charted, not once did it misbehave.

What I'm wondering now is if it only happens in certain matches or matches with certain options set. This is something where I need your help because so far, I haven't been able to get the automated test processor to nail down the problem even once.

Thanks,

Oliver
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 05/26/03 at 10:36:10

Happened first time I tried it...

Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle
1 fall
Hardcore mode, count-outs, disqualifications and standard time limit all checked...

Chris Benoit executes a snap suplex
on Kurt Angle.
Chris Benoit throws Kurt Angle out of
the ring.
Danny Davis counts: one, two, three,
four, Kurt Angle reenters the ring.
Kurt Angle executes the Angle Slam.
Danny Davis calls for the DQ.
The crowd is behind Chris Benoit all
the way.

The winner is Chris Benoit. Time of
match: 0:09:12
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 05/26/03 at 10:37:09

I should probably add that Angle's special move sets up his finisher, but I can't see why that should be the problem.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/27/03 at 10:09:31

I'm about 90% sure this is accurate, unfortunately I didn't save the ending, so there's a 10% chance I'm getting this mixed up with the other match Hogan was DQ'ed in.  Unlikely though, considering the other match only lasted a minute and change.  Not long enough for a special move.

Anyway, Hardcore mode is on.  Match is under default settings (c.o and dq are on) and time limit (20 min) with nothing booked to happen.

The Godfather defeated Hollywood Hogan by disqualification in 11:39.  Hogan's mega hulk up isn't illegal, and it doesn't set up his finisher.  The text string is larger than the boxit fits in, but I don't know that this'd be a problem.  It was a -****3/4 match.

It occurred in the 60th card I ran in that circuit, in the main event of that card.

I doubt any of these are the case, but maybe a shot in the dark will get lucky and hit something.

Hogan was getting the snot beaten out of him for the entire match, and I believe he was at 0% health at the time he used the special move.  Could the extreme hit point difference have anything to do with it?  Is there possibly a bit of code somewhere which connects non-finisher moves that inflict extreme damage to illegality somehow?  Is the simulator possibly designed to call for a DQ rather than give an error when it produces an unexpected figure somehow?

It really isn't an amazingly critical problem.  I've only seen it once in the ~500 cards I've run over the years.  Still, it is really quite odd.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/28/03 at 10:36:39

First off, I'm still trying but with the copy of Angle I have, I can't reproduce it. Tom - could you possibly send me your Angle export ? Thanks.

As far as Hogan's mega hulk up is concerned, I advise against using the special move field for anything but things like Muta's green mist or maybe Kobashi's lariat because these are DESPERATION moves that *always* lead to a pinfall attempt unless they are specified to set up the finisher.
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/28/03 at 19:38:45

Got it... BOY was *that* a tricky one. Will be in the next patch. The problem was neither the flags in the wrestler records nor a processing bug - that made it so difficult to trace.

The finish evaluator continually overruled the special move leading to the wrestler's finisher. This usually only happens during booked matches but here the alarm went off internally since the special move wasn't illegal.

The main issue is a logic issue... the "special move" field was *intended* exclusively for things like Muta's mist and so on. It never was intended for an actual wrestling move.

In particular in Angle's case, my recommendation is to leave the special move field blank, assign Angle the ankle lock as his finisher and create the Angle slam as a move that leads to the finisher. This is the straightforward way of doing it. The way you apparently are doing it, Tom, is somewhat haphazard because it misuses the purpose of the special move field.
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/28/03 at 22:47:52

Forgive me, but I don't really see the logical difference between a mega hulk up which includes a Big Leg Drop in the actual text string (and therefore isn't just used to set up the finisher) and is meant to always result in a pinfall attempt and the afforementioned green mist.

Could you possibly clarify and give a few more examples of things that should be used in that field, plus things that shouldn't?

Thanks.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 05/29/03 at 00:57:32

OK, I'll do my best.

Take this excerpt from a match between Kurt Angle and Hurricane I just ran:

Kurt Angle goes for a side headlock, but Hurricane Helms throws him off.
Kurt Angle performs the Angle Slam..
Kurt Angle executes the Ankle Lock on Hurricane Helms.
Hurricane Helms is inching his way towards the ropes.
Hurricane Helms is almost gone.
Tim White asks Hurricane Helms if he's still there.
Hurricane Helms nods.
Tim White asks Hurricane Helms if he should stop the fight.
Hurricane Helms shakes his head.
Tim White tells Hurricane Helms to respond or he'll stop the fight.
Hurricane Helms doesn't respond.
Tim White stops the fight after 43 seconds.
Numerous fans are using Kurt Angle for target practice.

The winner is Kurt Angle. Time of match: 0:12:16

This part is the interesting part:

Kurt Angle goes for a side headlock, but Hurricane Helms throws him off.
Kurt Angle performs the Angle Slam..

Angle gets thrown off by Hurricane and immediately does the Angle Slam afterward. Why ? Because it's set as his special move (i.e., desperation move). It's illogical and it doesn't follow the flow of the match at all.

Compare it with this:

Sting whips Great Muta into the ropes.
Sting goes for a clothesline but Great Muta ducks out of the way.
Great Muta goes for a spin kick but Sting doesn't budge.
Great Muta sprays Sting with the green mist.

If you watch closely, the advantage switches from Sting (line 1) to Muta (line 2) back to Sting (no-sell spot, line 3). That is the point where Muta resorts to his desperation tactic - which makes sense in that particular case.

Angle being thrown off and then going for the Angle Slam (which is a MOVE for crying out loud) doesn't make any sense and - at least IMO - disrupts the match flow.

That is the same reason why I've been so vehemently against people putting the People's Elbow in the special move field for the Rock.

The point is: you're using the desperation move which is basically a self-contained action to set up the Ankle Lock. What you need to realize here is that the Angle Slam will do a lot more damage than the finisher you are setting up...

Not to forget that it makes Angle's matches boring as hell because every time he gets in trouble, he'll pull off the Angle Slam / Ankle Lock combo which he'll *never* do the Angle Slam when he is on offense. *That* precisely is where it would be considerably more prudent to make the Angle Slam as a move (this way it could be countered !) and have it set up Angle's finisher.

I can't put it more clearly than this: do NOT (with a capital "N") use the special move field for things OTHER than Muta's green mist or maybe Kobashi's desperation lariat (which he *only* does when he is near death). That's the intended use and any use other than the intended use will give you subpar results.
John ProulxPosted on 05/29/03 at 01:47:59

On 05/29/03 at 00:57:32, Oliver Copp wrote:
I can't put it more clearly than this: do NOT (with a capital "N") use the special move field for things OTHER than Muta's green mist or maybe Kobashi's desperation lariat (which he *only* does when he is near death). That's the intended use and any use other than the intended use will give you subpar results.
This seems to be common in the TNM UK exports. Anyone who's using them should be aware of it -- are you listening, Mr. Abram :) ?
Critic_of_the_DawnPosted on 05/29/03 at 07:46:15

That's the sort of clarification I was hoping for.

Thanks a bunch, Oliver.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
King_Of_Old_SchoolPosted on 05/30/03 at 11:30:58

Now that I understand things a bit better, I'll start sorting out my exports. Glad I brought the whole problem up!