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TNA drops the ball at Genesis (spoilers duh)

AnubisPosted on 11/20/06 at 05:28:18

Started off okay, but the last few matches were beyond awful.  Okay, it may be "okay" that LAX continues to get pushed to the moon, I like Homicide, but Hernandez is severely lacking.  Still, their act is getting old already.

Kurt Angle defeating Samoa Joe . . . I have mixed feeling, but I think it was probably a mistake.  Angle is aging and not long for the squared circle, so he should've put Joe over.  I'm sure this feud will continue, but Joe has lost some steam due to tapping out, which was probably the worst part of it.  Angle doesn't need the rub, Joe does.  This just makes it look like "former WWE superstars are better than our talent".  I mean, at least it wasn't as bad as when Kevin Nash went over Goldberg, since Angle is at least deserving, but I think overall, it was a mistake.

Same goes for Christian Cage going over AJ Styles, honestly.  Bad move.

Abyss winning the belt, that was a deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned.  The belt changing hands on a dumb DQ finish, that ain't cool.  It's especially not cool using a legend like Sting, who can still work good matches, as a transitional champion to put over a big waste of space like Abyss.  The guy would be nothing without James Mitchell, and his ring ability is severely lacking.  Even Jeff Jarrett was a better Champion.  I seriously doubt Abyss is over enough for this, so I'm thinking the belt has lost a lot of prestige due to this.  Sting should have held the belt much longer.  This probably means that Sting is leaving, unfortunately, which will be a major loss for TNA.

I find myself doubting if I'm gonna watch anymore after this nonsense PPV.  Haven't decided yet.  I do know that this was terrible booking, though.  It's almost like they're taking booking lessons from Vince McMahon.  How I wish ROH would get a TV deal . . .
Critic of the DawnPosted on 11/20/06 at 06:50:18

ROH is good in large part because it doesn't have a TV deal.

Seriously.  TV is nice and all, but a significant part of the reason that ROH is as good as it is because it doesn't have to rush matches and angles to fit into an hour of TV time every week.  It has time for long undercard matches and slow-burn feuds that just wouldn't work well with a TV/PPV format.

If a ROH show runs long, so what?  They can always put one of the undercard matches online in the Video Wire.  But if a TV show or PPV runs long, it has to either be butchered in editing to make it fit, or worse a PPV cuts out when the timeslot finishes up halfway through the main event.

I have faith that Gabe could book a fun TV show... but I worry ROH would lose something in the conversion.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
CarlzillaPosted on 11/20/06 at 07:05:11

I'm not even sure that ROH wants a TV deal right now. I'm sure they could hit up a smaller network and get a shitty late night time slot without too much of a problem. I agree that part of what makes ROH great would probably be lost in translation though. Here's hoping that they stay DVD only.

As far as Angle over Joe, I think it was logical to put Angle over Joe and continue the feud. I don't like the fact that Joe tapped out. It's my opinion that submitting kills your heat worse than being pinned. I have a feeling Joe will win the big feud blow off match somewhere down the line and come out looking good...but if he wins off the bat then there's nothing to build up to in the long run.

Also, I'm not really impressed by Sting, he was boring to me back in the day and he was boring to me now. I'm not saying I agree with Abyss winning the belt, I don't really care for him either...he's a low-rate Kane impostor and Kane wasn't my cup-o-tea to begin with. I'm hoping that Sting is moving on, and Abyss is another transitional champion...I'm also hoping that he's not transitioning to Jarret...
PulsarPosted on 11/20/06 at 07:20:12

wow...seriously...Abyss over Sting? Samoa Joe taping? That is pretty bad.

Granted it does set-up the inevitable Kurt Angle, NWA CHAMPION!

Also, Christian going over AJ makes perfect sense....AJ's not in the Main Event scene anymore...Christian is. A Main Eventer should beat an Upper Midcarder at any PPV.
ZedjaPosted on 11/20/06 at 11:23:46

It's the mark of one Vince, but Russo, not McMahon.

Angle winning makes sense, tapping out did not. But the fued will continue as Joe said.

Christian winning made sense as well as the fued between AJ and Daniels is starting again
AnubisPosted on 11/20/06 at 13:30:06

On 11/20/06 at 11:23:46, Zedja wrote:Christian winning made sense as well as the fued between AJ and Daniels is starting again
Actually, that's precisely why it doesn't make sense.  We don't need yet another feud between Styles and Daniels, it's getting old rehashing the same crap every few months.  It was cool the first couple times, but now it's just old.  That and turning Styles heel (which looks to be the case here so far) is just dumb.

Styles should be moving up to the main event scene.  He's way way way more over than Cage, and he's a proven Champion, unlike Cage, who pretty much flopped.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 11/20/06 at 14:46:02

AJ Styles has little to no mic skills. He's not a proven champion. He was champion because they had no one else at the time. He's just a spotty high flyer at best.
AnubisPosted on 11/20/06 at 22:35:28

On 11/20/06 at 14:46:02, HugeRockStar760 wrote:AJ Styles has little to no mic skills. He's not a proven champion. He was champion because they had no one else at the time. He's just a spotty high flyer at best.
You apparently haven't seen much of his work.  Yeah, his mic skills are lacking, but he is one of the top ten wrestlers in North America in terms of in-ring ability.  He is a proven Champion and he is more over than Christian Cage.
Snabbit888Posted on 11/20/06 at 23:23:24

I've seen plenty of Styles.  He's good, but it's gotten boring at best.  His overall lack of personality is awful, and I'm just not all that impressed these days.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 11/21/06 at 03:34:54

On 11/20/06 at 22:35:28, Anubis wrote:

You apparently haven't seen much of his work.  Yeah, his mic skills are lacking, but he is one of the top ten wrestlers in North America in terms of in-ring ability.  He is a proven Champion and he is more over than Christian Cage.
I guess you and I prefer different kind of wrestlers. You prefer spotty, charisma-less wrestlers, with little to no idea of ring psychology while I like wrestlers in the Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Arn Anderson mold. I want to believe in what I am watching. I have to suspend belief with most of AJ Styles' matches.
pszPosted on 11/21/06 at 04:02:05

Styles is like a less-techinical Benoit. Different styles (no pun intended), of course, but just overall, his In-Ring ability is just... Not quite up to the Hart Family Dungeon quality, or Old School Carolinas/Tennesse. Gotta agree with HRS on that.

He HAS natural ability in-ring, no doubt. It's just not refined enough.

Borden and Douglas need to school him a bit in-ring and on-mic ;->
UnrightPosted on 11/21/06 at 05:22:04

I think Atyles has just gotten lazy lately. Well, not lazy, but just not as motivated as he was to put on a great match every time he goes out.  Nowadays he just goes out, hits his spots and required transitions and that's it.

Maybe he knows he hit a glass ceiling. Or maybe he just needs a vacation.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 11/21/06 at 06:08:02

On 11/21/06 at 04:02:05, psz wrote:Styles is like a less-techinical Benoit. Different styles (no pun intended), of course, but just overall, his In-Ring ability is just... Not quite up to the Hart Family Dungeon quality, or Old School Carolinas/Tennesse. Gotta agree with HRS on that.

He HAS natural ability in-ring, no doubt. It's just not refined enough.

Borden and Douglas need to school him a bit in-ring and on-mic ;->
Definitely. I don't think he's horrible. But I think his accomplishments in TNA have overstated his true worth. Big fish in a small pond basically.

I'm just not a fan of constant high flying, spotty action in wrestling.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 11/21/06 at 06:10:49

On 11/21/06 at 05:22:04, Unright wrote:I think Atyles has just gotten lazy lately. Well, not lazy, but just not as motivated as he was to put on a great match every time he goes out.  Nowadays he just goes out, hits his spots and required transitions and that's it.

Maybe he knows he hit a glass ceiling. Or maybe he just needs a vacation.
He has nothing left to accomplish in TNA. Unless he can re-invent his character and become another Ric Flair like wrestler with his version of a Four Horsemen group.

Otherwise, his wrestling career is limited. I doubt he'll go to the WWE. They might sign him just so TNA can't have him but he won't win any World Titles. That is, unless mic skills in the WWE are not as important as they are now.
AnubisPosted on 11/21/06 at 07:12:46

AJ Styles isn't a spotty wrestler by nature, that's just how TNA usually pushes him.  He shows his true stuff on occasion, especially during his matches with Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels from last year.

Chris Sabin and Sonjay Dutt are spotty wrestlers.  They aren't even in the same league as Styles.  I hate both of them, they're completely boring.

For the record, I think Ric Flair even at his current age is one of the best wrestlers in the world, and I was a huge Arn Anderson fan.  Honestly, I think Unright hit a good point; Styles does seem "bored" lately, and I think he has hit a glass ceiling.  Ever since TNA got bigger, he's been pushed to the back burner, which I do find disrespectful.  Styles is one of the few home-grown talents responsible for TNA's success, and they've all but discarded him in favor of mic workers with less in-ring ability like Abyss and Christian Cage.  I understand why Styles doesn't try as hard anymore, and I admit that it shows.  He's still more over, though, and more talented.  I don't care if a guy has mic skills or not; I'll take Mariko Yoshida over The Rock any day (not that Styles compares to Mariko in ability, but you get my point).

My biggest gripes with the PPV are Styles getting basically de-pushed, Joe tapping out (more than just losing the match, since at least Kurt Angle is a respectable opponent worthy of breaking the streak), and Abyss winning the belt.  Especially Abyss winning the belt.  Lemme tell you all a secret; every week I watch TNA, and every time Abyss is in a match, I fall asleep.  I kid you not.  I have never had that problem with any other wrestlers.  He quite literally puts me to sleep.  He is boring and worthless and should be nowhere near the belt.  Abyss holding that belt is a disgrace.  I can name several heels that could have beaten Sting if they wanted a transition to a face Jeff Jarrett or to Angle that freaking bad.  Better yet, if Angle is next Champion, I think they should have headed toward a three-way involving Angel, Sting, and Joe.  That would put asses in the seats.  How much of a draw is Abyss gonna be as Champion?  Zip.  Angle can draw all by himself, sure, but let's get serious, people aren't gonna pay to watch Angle wrestle Abyss, they're gonna pay to watch Angle period.  Angle is easily the most over person on the roster, Sting being second, Joe third, Styles fourth, Daniels fifth, Jarrett sixth, Cage seventh.  Abyss isn't anywhere near them.  Not even in their league.  It's a disgrace to the heritage of the NWA World Heavyweight Title.  It's a "WWE-ish" move.  If this is Vince Russo in action, I want him gone like yesterday.  They should hire me as head booker.  Even you guys who don't like my stuff would have to admit I'd do better than Russo!
ZedjaPosted on 11/21/06 at 08:14:16

Haven't we already established that a one-eyed donkey is better than Vince Russo or is that just my opinion?
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/21/06 at 13:50:17

yes, Abyss, Scotty Riggs, and Jean Pierre Lafitte are all better than Russo...  your point?
Captain TagonPosted on 11/22/06 at 23:09:52

I actually like Abyss as champion. I don't like how he won necessarily, especially with lots of other moments in that match that could have led to a DQ, but I like him as champion.

Christian over AJ makes sense. Christian is boss as a heel. And I don't care if we've seen AJ/Daniels a million times, they always get the best out of each other.

LAX getting stripped was way lame though. They are easily the top tag team in wrestling today, along with being probably the hottest thing in TNA history. They all bring something different to the table to make a great whole.

Joe tapping I don't agree with. Have Angle knock him out or something. And have the match go longer.
AnubisPosted on 11/22/06 at 23:17:56

How is Abyss a good Champion?  Makes no sense to me.

And yes, forgot to mention LAX getting stripped.  Honestly, I'm not a fan of a Champion ever getting stripped of a belt, except in extreme cases like injury or whatever.
Captain TagonPosted on 11/22/06 at 23:44:04

Abyss is a great big man. He's busted his tail for the company and been passed over time and again. He's a true monster and a good worker at that. Plus he's over. Just because you personally don't like him doesn't mean he isn't a credible champion. The guy is a beast.
Sith Lord GohanPosted on 11/22/06 at 23:53:39

On 11/22/06 at 23:44:04, Captain Tagon wrote:Just because you personally don't like him doesn't mean he isn't a credible champion. The guy is a beast.
Still (and this is coming from a TNA-hater) his "win" over Sting doesn't do him any favors.  A booked-screwjob will only hurt him (since it was done to protect Sting).  Especially since (from what I've heard) Sting no-sold a lot of his offense.
Captain TagonPosted on 11/23/06 at 00:02:55

The DQ ending could have been cool if they hadn't done thumbtack spots and the like earlier in the match. I liked parts of the PPV, but after reading Impact! spoilers for the next three weeks, the fact is Russo is still freaking nuts.

So, if you want to bash TNA, you'll have plenty of chances coming up. I just think cool stuff could have come out of the PPV.
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/23/06 at 02:15:00

Sadly enough, Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett are just as goofy as Russo since they have the final say on what VinnyRu books.

When one talks of lack of cred in Abyss, I must point one to Abyss's early years down in Puerto Rico with the IWA.  He was a better monster there than his trucker Abyss version that we see in TNA.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 11/23/06 at 03:40:55

I personally enjoy Abyss, and think that he's one of the better big men in the business today.  Let him have a short run as champion, I say.  It's about time TNA has done something with him other than toss him into throwaway garbage brawls every month.

I was dissappointed to see Joe tap out, even if Angle is one of the few wrestlers I can buy as being on his level.  I would personally have preferred it if they had done something closer to Samoa Joe's Ring of Honor debut match against Low Ki at Glory By Honor in 2002.

For those of you not familiar with it, Joe basically came in as a hired assassin for Christopher Daniels, who was feuding with Low Ki.  Low Ki had been built up as an unstoppable force whose stiff strikes could decimate anyone who tried to stand up to him - he would basically ALWAYS come out on top any time chops and kicks were involved.  Joe came in, shrugged off Ki's strikes, and countered back with his own, coupled with some nice power moves.  

Low Ki was basically presented with an opponent he couldn't easily outbrawl for the first time in his career, which left him in a tough spot.  After a 20 minute very even brawl, each fighter was visibly battered and exhausted, and Ki went for one last desperate flurry of kicks.  To his dismay, Joe withstood the blow, bellowed in anger, and lunged forward with a lariat which was sure to put Low Ki away...

...Except he didn't connect.  He collapsed halfway into the move, and while Ki was able to pick up the pin, it was pretty clearly a knock out situation.

Just replace Low Ki with Kurt Angle, and kicks with submissions, and you've got a hell of a finish right there.  Angle still breaks Joe's streak, but Joe didn't give up.  He gets within seconds of winning, but at the last moment his ankle gives out on him, Angle locks in the Ankle Lock, and Joe passes out almost immediately.

That's how I would have done it.  That said, I did quite like the aftermath of the match, and would love to see a rematch.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 11/23/06 at 07:13:35

People are missing the most important point of the whole Championship issue . . .

Sting > Abyss

Sting has more in-ring ability, is more entertaining, has a more interesting character, and is a known draw as Champion. Turning him into some loser transitional Champion is just awful, it makes his entire reign look like a joke, and makes Jeff Jarrett (whom Sting crushed even after getting beat around) look even worse, regardless of the finish, which was also pure BS that made no booking sense whatsoever.

There are at least a dozen people in TNA more credible and more over than Abyss. The NWA World Heavyweight Title is not what you use to elevate new stars, it is what you use to signify the best of the best. Abyss holding it, especially after having won it the way he did, tarhishes its reputation worse than just about anything I can think of. So it's not about whether Abyss is even good or not, it's quite obvious he's not anywhere near the best, and he's nowhere near over enough to be the standard-bearer for the company.

P.S. After reading the results for the next few TNA shows, seeing the insane booking, and seeing that Tyson fucking Tomko was hired, I think I may just stop watching it.  TNA has turned into, well, pretty much the same thing as WWE's ECW show.  It has become WWE-lite.  This is complete garbage.

This also makes me wonder about Vince Russo.  Could it be that it was no coincidence that WCW starting floudering the second Vince Russo came in?  Floudering much worse, that is.  I wonder if Russo has secretly been working for Vince McMahon all along, booking for other companies and sabotaging them with his writing . . . It would make sense.  Russo's work in WWE got plenty of ratings and made the company very successful, yet everywhere else Russo goes, the opposite happens.  Coincidence?  I think not.
Snabbit888Posted on 11/23/06 at 07:50:18

The "Russo conspiracy" thing seems weak.  My view of it is that when Russo gets a little power, it's good if he has someone to weed out all of the complete nonsense, i.e. Vince.  Vince seems to be losing his mind more and more, but they were booking GREAT TV in the late 90's, which is when Russo was most successful.  Russo needs someone to reel him in and get rid of his nonsense ideas.
AnubisPosted on 11/23/06 at 08:06:01

On 11/23/06 at 07:50:18, Snabbit888 wrote:The "Russo conspiracy" thing seems weak. My view of it is that when Russo gets a little power, it's good if he has someone to weed out all of the complete nonsense, i.e. Vince. Vince seems to be losing his mind more and more, but they were booking GREAT TV in the late 90's, which is when Russo was most successful. Russo needs someone to reel him in and get rid of his nonsense ideas.
When it was just WCW ruined, I was able to let it slide as a coincidence.  Problem is, WCW is not the only victim of his booking.  Now TNA is getting ruined by the guy.  Even when Jeff Jarrett was booking, he did a decent enough job.  Not great, but not terrible.  Vince Russo's booking looks almost identical to Vince McMahon's booking right now.  Reading the TNA spoilers, I thought I was reading WWE spoilers, I kid you not.  That is what it reads like and feels like.  It is a noticable and distinct change from just a short while ago, and looks more and more like WWE every day.

So I would think this all makes the conspiracy theory more than a little feasible.  Let's just say it doesn't sound crazy in the least, unlike most conspiracy theories out there.  It actually sounds like it could be happening.  The proof is in the results, albeit circumstantial.
Snabbit888Posted on 11/23/06 at 08:40:29

I think it's more than Jarrett and Co. is so desperate to compete with WWE RIGHT NOW~!!!!!, that they are simply jumping the shark by hiring Russo and letting him book.  It's the same reason Gary Matthews Jr. is gonna make $10 million a year for the LAA Angels.
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/23/06 at 14:30:15

Sting has more in-ring ability
it should be HAD, not has.  Sting hasn't had much in ring ability since turning into the nWo mime in the rafters.  Back problems and painkiller abuse will do that for ya.

As for Russo being the end all, be all, savior of booking... he's a victim of his own self-promotion.  No one remembers that when the WWE was hot Russo may have been the head writer, but he also had Ed Ferrera, Pat Patterson, and Tom Prichard as help.  Most good WWE booking has come from Patterson over the years.  And Ferrera seems to me to "get it" way more than Russo and seemed to be the common sense portion of the Russo/Ferrera booking team.  IF you keep Russo in check with his wayout ideas, then his booking is okay.  That being said, if Jarrett had any sense, he would have let Scott D'Amore and Terry Taylor run the show, since they had some rather sensible booking when they were running their Border City Wrestling shows.
UnrightPosted on 11/23/06 at 14:43:35

On 11/23/06 at 07:13:35, Anubis wrote:People are missing the most important point of the whole Championship issue . . .

Sting > Abyss

Sting has more in-ring ability, is more entertaining, has a more interesting character, and is a known draw as Champion. Turning him into some loser transitional Champion is just awful, it makes his entire reign look like a joke, and makes Jeff Jarrett (whom Sting crushed even after getting beat around) look even worse, regardless of the finish, which was also pure BS that made no booking sense whatsoever.
Now, I'm not defending Russo's booking by any stretch of the imagination.

...but, a champion isn't necessarily always the wrestler with the best in-ring ability, the most entertaining, the most interesting character, or has to be a known draw. Having a big heel champ like Abyss is useful if you want to pursue storylines where smaller better faces have to somehow overcome the odds to defeat the big, bad scary monster... Y'know, the time-honored plot to Rocky. It works time and time again.

That being said, it really only works well if Abyss had been built up as an unstoppable heel monster, and he hasn't. With James Mitchell at his side, he just comes off as some sort of carnival freak with his overblown 'mystical' manager. Not main event material. What was his feud before he got involved in the title match? A four-way feud with Raven, Brother Runt and Samoa Joe? Didn't Samoa Joe win that? Why isn't he the unstoppable heel champ in TNA?

I hate Russo.
meetzorakPosted on 11/24/06 at 02:27:18

A HEX ON YOU FOR BAD MOUTHING ABYSS!
CarlzillaPosted on 11/24/06 at 05:07:38

I don't see what all the fuss about Abyss is. He's been patient, he's a competent big man, he's decently over, and he's probably transitional. I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's not like the Great Kahli came in and won the NWA title...
meetzorakPosted on 11/24/06 at 05:33:22

Cue TNAs late answear to Kahli... Giant Silva.  :P
AnubisPosted on 11/24/06 at 05:38:39

On 11/24/06 at 05:07:38, Carlzilla wrote:I don't see what all the fuss about Abyss is. He's been patient, he's a competent big man, he's decently over, and he's probably transitional. I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's not like the Great Kahli came in and won the NWA title...
Since when was "competent" and "decent" actually good enough to be NWA World Heavyweight Champion?

People were up in arms about Jeff Jarrett when he held the belt, but he is far better in the ring and a much better heel, not to mention a bigger name altogether.
meetzorakPosted on 11/24/06 at 05:59:34

On 11/24/06 at 05:38:39, Anubis wrote:

Since when was "competent" and "decent" actually good enough to be NWA World Heavyweight Champion?

People were up in arms about Jeff Jarrett when he held the belt, but he is far better in the ring and a much better heel, not to mention a bigger name altogether.
Hey, I believe competent and decent were both thrown out the window after big Dusts 3 reigns of terror, and lets not forget about The Beasts beastly 4 year reign of disgust, im not done yet here are some other NWAS champs worse then Abyss.

The Colorado Kid
Ron Killings (DAMN YOU AFFIRMITIVE ACTION!)
Rhino (Two days to long)
Barry Windham
Jack Veneno
Victor Jovica
Chris Candido (RIP but still he was no NWA champion)
AND OF COURSE



Raven (Why someone would put the most meaningful belt of all time around RAVENS (Scotty Flamingo) waist hurts my brain to this day.)

NOW STOP COMPLAINING, BEFORE THEY HEAR AND GIVE THE BELT TO ERIC YOUNG AKA GOOKER 06!
AnubisPosted on 11/24/06 at 09:44:26

Raven and Killings are perfectly credible and valid Champions.  Maybe not Eric Young, though I do think he's awesome and a future star, but still . . .
CarlzillaPosted on 11/24/06 at 10:15:10

I find Sting to only be competent and decent. He's not, nor has he ever been spectacular in the ring IMHO.

I don't see what your problem with Abyss is really. He's over, he plays his role well, he's capable of putting on watchable matches (for most people), and he's been loyal the the company.

If you don't like him, that's fine, I'm not his biggest fan either. I do however see plenty of reasons to at least give him a shot at holding the belt.

There have been plenty of people that I personally hate to watch that have been champion *cough*RVD*cough*cough*, but I'd never say that they didn't deserve it just because I personally don't care for their wrestling ability or style.

Rick GarrardPosted on 11/24/06 at 11:02:12

The Colorado Kid
Ron Killings (DAMN YOU AFFIRMITIVE ACTION!)
Rhino (Two days to long)
Barry Windham
Jack Veneno
Victor Jovica
Chris Candido (RIP but still he was no NWA champion)
AND OF COURSE  
Raven
How could you leave Tommy Rich off this list?  He was the WORST NWA Champion ever.  OR at least a close second to Mike Rapada, the Colorado Kid.  And let's not forget Shane Douglas's reign as NWA champ that lasted all of less than the 30 seconds it took for him to throw down the title belt and declare himself the first ever ECW WORLD Heavyweight Champion.
meetzorakPosted on 11/24/06 at 16:39:35

On 11/24/06 at 11:02:12, Rick Garrard wrote:

How could you leave Tommy Rich off this list? He was the WORST NWA Champion ever. OR at least a close second to Mike Rapada, the Colorado Kid. And let's not forget Shane Douglas's reign as NWA champ that lasted all of less than the 30 seconds it took for him to throw down the title belt and declare himself the first ever ECW WORLD Heavyweight Champion.
Dont doubt The Wildfire, just because he wasn't interesting until he was 50 and pretending to be italian. :P
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/24/06 at 16:46:04

"let me tell ya Gordon" - Tommy Rich when talking to Joey Styles in ECW some 20 years after winning his NWA World Title.

That pretty much sums up Tommy's career.  Although Rich was interesting when he was in the AWA as well when he was feuding with AWA Womens Champion Sherri Martel and ripped her gimmicked dress off of her on ESPN TV.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 11/24/06 at 18:34:23

On 11/23/06 at 07:13:35, Anubis wrote:People are missing the most important point of the whole Championship issue . . .

Sting > Abyss

Sting has more in-ring ability, is more entertaining, has a more interesting character, and is a known draw as Champion. Turning him into some loser transitional Champion is just awful, it makes his entire reign look like a joke, and makes Jeff Jarrett (whom Sting crushed even after getting beat around) look even worse, regardless of the finish, which was also pure BS that made no booking sense whatsoever.
Meh. I like Abyss a heck of a lot more than I like Sting. Aside from the fact that he's large, I'm not sure what there is about him to dislike. He sells 10 times more than most big men in the sport, he's got some good moves which he hits well, and he's got a decent gimmick with a great manager that he actually incorporates into his matches.

At this point, Anubis, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that you just plain old don't like the "Big Man" style of wrestling. Out of curiosity, are there any wrestlers larger than Goldberg that you don't consider to be a waste of oxygen? I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm legitimately curious.

There are at least a dozen people in TNA more credible and more over than Abyss. The NWA World Heavyweight Title is not what you use to elevate new stars, it is what you use to signify the best of the best. Abyss holding it, especially after having won it the way he did, tarhishes its reputation worse than just about anything I can think of. So it's not about whether Abyss is even good or not, it's quite obvious he's not anywhere near the best, and he's nowhere near over enough to be the standard-bearer for the company.
Here's something else I differ with you on. Let's look at Ring of Honor, which at least seems like it's your favorite promotion.

ROH World Champions

1) Low Ki - Low Ki was ROH's top star in the early days, so it was only natural that they chose him as their top champion. But on only his second defense, he dropped the belt to...

2) Xavier - Prior to this match, Xavier was an EXTREMELY bland midcard babyface who nobody gave two flying figs about. Xavier took the Title with the help of Christopher Daniels, joined the Prophecy, and had a long 9 month run with the belt precisely because he didn't seem to be deserving. He only won his matches about half the time, and regularly lost to midcarders, but frustratingly always came out on top when it counted.

3) Samoa Joe - Joe was "made" in ROH by his initial match against Low Ki, but prior to (and even for almost a year after) winning the World Title, he was seen as little more than a promising up and comer with an unfortunate tendency to sporadically no-sell and a couple very bland finishing moves. During his nearly 2 year reign, he went from this raw but talented up and comer to the top draw in ROH, and his legendary feuds with CM Punk and Homicide basically paved the way for his dominant character in TNA. Due to the length of the reign and its quality in the latter parts, its very easy to forget that he was a relatively untested commodity coming in to it.

4) Austin Aries - Austin Aries wasn't even the leader of Generation Next until the night of his Title Shot against Joe. On that night, he staged a coup with Roderick Strong and Jack Evans and kicked GeNext founder Alex Shelley out, got a kickass new entrance theme, and defeated Samoa Joe. Aries was seen as probably the best Rookie in ROH of 2004, but there were a lot of people more "deserving" of the belt than him. But it didn't matter. He got an action-packed 6 month run with the belt which cemented him as a legitimate threat to anyone in the company, even to founding stars like Low Ki, Homicide, and Bryan Danielson.

5) CM Punk - CM Punk was probably the most over star in ROH on his last night in the company, when he unexpectedly won the World Title and turned heel, then went on to run with it for the entire summer, during most of which he was under WWE contract. This was a damn good storyline which led to some amazing matches, but jobbing your champion to a wrestler who is leaving soon is hardly standard practice. Normally you make your own guys look strong at the expense of the wrestler on his way out, so one could make the argument that it would have been better for Ring of Honor in the longterm to skip Punk's reign and job him clean to Aries in his last match. After all, they fed Paul London to Joe on London's last ROH match, and London was every bit as much of a major star.

6) James Gibson - So Punk was ready to leave at the end of the Summer of Punk. Who do they put the put the belt on? James Gibson!?! See, Gibson was on his way back to WWE too, and while he had consistently put on some of the best matches during his roughly 1 year stay in Ring of Honor, he wasn't quite as "over" as the top names like Joe, Danielson, and Homicide. Considering most of these wrestlers were also chasing Punk, why put the belt on Gibson? Gibson was a transitional champion, and everyone knew it going into his reign. But in order to get the most out of him, they needed to show that he really was a top level talent. So he got his month-long title reign, dropped the belt to Danielson, and gave Roderick Strong the biggest rub of his career on his way out.

7) Bryan Danielson - Yes, Bryan Danielson was one of the founding stars of ROH. But he had just returned from a 6 month sabbatical (which had many speculating that he was retiring), and actually picked up the belt on his first match back. Apparently he didn't get much ring rust during those six months. While he's been a great champion, you could make an argument that he didn't earn a shot at the belt, and that his victory didn't make much logical sense.

So... there you have it. 7 champions, and only 1 (the first, Low Ki) was clearly seen as the top guy in the company coming into his title reign. The rest were midcarders or upper midcarders Gabe wanted to push, wrestlers on their way to WWE, or returning stars who didn't earn their shots. Yet despite all of this, many internet wrestling fans consider the Ring of Honor World Title to be the most prestigious belt in North America. Why is it okay for Ring of Honor to sometimes have the belt on wrestlers who aren't the fans favorites, but not for TNA to do the same? Don't changes of this nature sometimes make the sport more "realistic?"

P.S. After reading the results for the next few TNA shows, seeing the insane booking, and seeing that Tyson fucking Tomko was hired, I think I may just stop watching it. TNA has turned into, well, pretty much the same thing as WWE's ECW show. It has become WWE-lite. This is complete garbage.

This also makes me wonder about Vince Russo. Could it be that it was no coincidence that WCW starting floudering the second Vince Russo came in? Floudering much worse, that is. I wonder if Russo has secretly been working for Vince McMahon all along, booking for other companies and sabotaging them with his writing . . . It would make sense. Russo's work in WWE got plenty of ratings and made the company very successful, yet everywhere else Russo goes, the opposite happens. Coincidence? I think not.
I give this conspiracy theory as much credit as Rick Garrard's conspiracy theory that WWE is secretly bankrolling both TNA and ROH, which is to say little to none. ;)

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/24/06 at 19:00:15

They were secretly funding UPW and ECW for years... however not directly but through paying the booking agents of the companies as contractors to the WWE.

And I'd bet WWE would have done the same with Court Bauer of MLW considering how it took them less than a month after MLW was dead to hire Court to be a part of the WWE team.

Only Gabe and the WWE know for sure if he's on the WWE paysheet.  As for TNA... we all know that it was Daddy Jarrett that was the venture capitalist originally for TNA, until Carter Energy needed to find a way to offset its gains in the oil industry by picking up a company like TNA that was hemmoraging money so they could reduce their corporate taxable income.  It's smart business.  And no WWE does not have anything to do with TNA, other than shedding talent just so TNA overpays for them, just like WWE did with WCW.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 11/24/06 at 19:28:47

And that's why I don't think WWE bankrolling ROH is very likely.  Gabe is the head booker of Ring of Honor, but unlike Paul E, I gather he has little to nothing to do with the business end of things.  ROH owner Cary Silken handles that end of things very capably, and has actually built ROH into a comapny that turns a profit, which is unusual in the Wreslting industry.

Since Cary Silken already has enough cash to buy a wrestling company and since that company is profitable, I don't think he needs Vince's money.  And since Gabe doesn't run the business end of things, I'm pretty sure that being on WWE's payroll could create a conflict of interests situation, so it's quite unlikely unless he has Cary Silken's blessing.

What ROH Does have is a strong working relationship with both WWE and TNA.  Gabe is an old associate of Paul Heyman's, and people like Mick Foley, Ricky Steamboat, and others in the WWE structure have all done business with Ring of Honor before.  And ROH has been sharing talent with TNA on and off since they first started.

Essentially, both TNA and WWE seem to view ROH as an independent developmental territory that is worth cooperating with because they produce a different style of wrestler than either promotion tends to on their own.  After all, two of the top rising stars in wrestling (Samoa Joe and CM Punk) first made their names in Ring of Honor, and there are several other hot prospects there - Colt Cabana, Nigel McGuinness, Chris Hero, and Bryan Danielson all spring to mind.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 11/24/06 at 23:50:34

On 11/24/06 at 18:34:23, Critic of the Dawn wrote:At this point, Anubis, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that you just plain old don't like the "Big Man" style of wrestling. Out of curiosity, are there any wrestlers larger than Goldberg that you don't consider to be a waste of oxygen? I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm legitimately curious.
There are some, but not many. The original Undertaker gimmick (the legit "dead man", not the washed up version that's been hanging around the last few years) was entertaining. Wrath (Bryan Clark) was good. Kevin Nash, while terrible in the ring, is probably one of the only people in wrestling entertaining enough to make me not care about his lack of in-ring ability. Scott Hall is technically a big man, though he's never been pushed as one, and I thought he was freaking awesome, one of the most underrated workers in the industry during his peak. I'm sure there are a couple others, but I can't recall at the moment . . . So I guess thats' about it . . .

Yeah, I hate the big man style, that is very true. It's probably because I'm into real fighting as well, and in reality, size doesn't matter as much as the big man style would have you believe. The best fighter historically, Rickson Gracie, was my size. Also, the only reason most women aren't as tough as men is because most of them don't care to be violent to begin with; those who have the true desire are equal to men, assuming the skill factor is comparable. WWE's product is insulting by portraying women who don't look like Chyna as completely helpless against men of pretty much any size, which is just ridiculous. While Trish Stratus was pretty much an overpushed swimsuit model, I would actually be able to buy women like Lita and Mickie James going over men. Maybe not the top men like Triple H (again, gotta consider that skill must be comparable for it to be realistic), but definitely midcard material.

I just feel that the big man style is insulting to my intelligence, as is the "men are better than women" mentality.

On 11/24/06 at 18:34:23, Critic of the Dawn wrote:Here's something else I differ with you on. Let's look at Ring of Honor, which at least seems like it's your favorite promotion.
Problem with your comparison is that the ROH World Heavyweight Title doesn't have the lineage and the history that the NWA World Heavyweight Title does. That and it's much smaller and has nowhere near as much prestige. ROH should be pushing up-and-comers, for precisely the reason you stated; they're more or less a developmental territory for new workers. So in their case it makes sense. The NWA World Heavyweight Title, however, loses prestige every time someone who isn't near the top holds it.

I have no clue why you all don't like Sting. He's good in the ring (great psychology, which is most important), he's very entertaining, and he holds a large amount of respect and pretige in the wrestling world. Aside from Kurt Angle, Sting is the biggest star in the company. If they wanted to push an up-and-comer deserving of the top spot, there were several other choices, starting with Samoa Joe and ending with, dare I say it, Alex Shelley and Austin Starr, who I could buy as Champion thanks in part to Kevin Nash of all people. Not that I'd give it to them, but they'd sure as Hell be better than Abyss.

I would have gone like so:

Sting > Kurt Angle > Samoa Joe

Then I would have continued Nash's attacks on the X-Division, had him get involved with Jerry Lynn (screw Chris Sabin, he's a bland little spot monkey), and eventually had Nash push Shelley and Starr further and further, culminating with Joe dropping it to one of Nash's proteges once they were big enough. Maybe have a huge contest involving Sting, Angle, Joe, Shelley, Starr, and a returning Jeff Jarrett.

P.S. About Sting, his no-selling the guitar shot against Jarrett will go down as one of the absolute coolest moments in wrestling history for me.
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/25/06 at 00:45:54

I have no clue why you all don't like Sting.  He's good in the ring (great psychology, which is most important), he's very entertaining, and he holds a large amount of respect and pretige in the wrestling world.  Aside from Kurt Angle, Sting is the biggest star in the company.
It's mainly becuase he's a shiveled up, painted black and white, impersonating a mime in the rafters while trying to be Crow version of his former cooler than cool Beach Sting that actually couldn't cut a decent promo, but had the charisma to keep people interested in WCW and made Cactus Jack a household star.  Could black and white mime Sting cause Foley to go from face to heel over a three month span just based on their entire in ring battles?  I highly doubt it.  Sting just doesn't seem to have the passion or the drive that he once had.  Ever since the day that Hogan called him a washed up dog on the porch during Hogan's nWo run, Sting has never been the same.  

Plus anytime the most over face in a company comes out and tells the fans to "stick it" can go straight to hell and not get any more praise from anyone since it was the same fans that once paid his salary.  (Fans don't pay the salaries in TNA, since all admission to the shows is free with admission to the amusement park).

Granted Sting is one loyal SOB (which I do respect him for), considering how he had many chances to go to the WWE, but stayed as the flagship star of the floundering pre-Bischoff WCW.  However, loyalty and talent are two different things.  And sadly for Sting's case, it's a sad commentary if he is in fact one of the top two or three in ring talents currently in TNA, with all the younger talent they have that apparently don't have "it" like he once did.
UnrightPosted on 11/25/06 at 03:39:20

On 11/24/06 at 18:34:23, Critic of the Dawn wrote:So... there you have it.  7 champions, and only 1 (the first, Low Ki) was clearly seen as the top guy in the company coming into his title reign.  The rest were midcarders or upper midcarders Gabe wanted to push, wrestlers on their way to WWE, or returning stars who didn't earn their shots.
I think the reason for this is that Gabe correctly sees a belt for what it is: a plot device. You don't just give it to a guy and say "Allright, you're the best we've got, just look better than your opponents until we tell you to lose." A belt is just an excuse to create storylines to elevate people.

Low Ki as title holder was all well and good, but Aries' reign yielded much more storyline opportunities. So did Punk's and Gibson's reign. ROH wrestlers have to get the belt off them. It's exciting.

On 11/24/06 at 23:50:34, Anubis wrote:Yeah, I hate the big man style, that is very true.  It's probably because I'm into real fighting as well, and in reality, size doesn't matter as much as the big man style would have you believe.
I agree with Anubis here. The idea that the big man is the hardest to beat is kinda a leftover carny part of wrestling.  "Who can last 3 minutes in the ring with the Amazing So-and-So!" Kinda stuff.

On one hand, I realize that if I bumped into Kane in real life, I really doubt that I could last 3 minutes in the ring with him. But on the other hand, I'm aware that there are several fighting styles and techniques where a little man can beat a big man. If I knew those techniques, then I possibly could hold my own.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 11/25/06 at 05:57:09

Regarding the big man style, yes, in a legitimate fight, skill is every bit as important as size.  With that said, in a fight between two competitors of equal skill, the larger competitor will tend to win more often since they hit harder and have more mass to resist strikes and grapples from their opponents.  This is why mixed martial arts, amateur wrestling and boxing have weight classes.

Professional wrestling generally lacks these formal weight classes, which is why the "big man" style generally focuses on slower-paced, methodical offense punctuated by occasional impressive power spots.  Since they're in the same weight class as the regular heavyweights, their opponents have to be able to credibly outrun them, outgrapple them, or even simply outlast them.  This is why you hear of "big men" with the agility to perform moves like Moonsaults being encouraged not to do them.  "David versus Goliath" matchups are one of the most popular match storylines out there, and they just don't work if Goliath can wrestle circles around David.

Does this encourage many big men to rely on their size rather than honing their craft to the degree that they might possibly?  Probably.  But I would contend that Abyss is not one of the ones guilty of this.



As for the ROH belt needing different priorities than the NWA or WWE belts, I disagree.  Just because your belt has been around for a long time doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't occasionally put the belt on someone unexpected.  Top names can often draw for themselves even without titles, whereas up and comers never reach the top unless you eventually take a risk and give them that big push to the top.  ROH has proven to be very good at this - partially out of necessity since WWE and TNA periodically sign away top-level talent, it's true.  But it's mostly because it makes a more interesting story than "Jeff Jarrett and Sting trade the belt back and forth because giving the belt to anyone else degrades it."

Putting on a good show that people want to pay money to see is many, many times more important than whether or not your best guy holds the belt.  If you never shake things up, your show gets predictable.  Just watch WWE television lately to see this in action.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
AnubisPosted on 11/25/06 at 09:51:48

First off, skill is several times more important than size.  I think big men in wrestling should hone technical wrestling ability, not high spots.  That would be good enough in my opinion.

Second, predictable isn't always a bad thing.

Third, it's not a matter of keeping the belt on a top star, it's a matter of keeping the belt at least on people close to the top. Abyss just isn't. Not in ability, not in charisma and entertainment, and not in overness. I already named a half dozen people who would be more fitting. Abyss should have been a throwaway title defense for Sting to cement him as "still having what it takes to be Champion". Instead, they put it on someone who barely makes the top ten in TNA.
meetzorakPosted on 11/25/06 at 17:19:28

On 11/25/06 at 09:51:48, Anubis wrote:First off, skill is several times more important than size. I think big men in wrestling should hone technical wrestling ability, not high spots. That would be good enough in my opinion.

Second, predictable isn't always a bad thing.

Third, it's not a matter of keeping the belt on a top star, it's a matter of keeping the belt at least on people close to the top. Abyss just isn't. Not in ability, not in charisma and entertainment, and not in overness. I already named a half dozen people who would be more fitting. Abyss should have been a throwaway title defense for Sting to cement him as "still having what it takes to be Champion". Instead, they put it on someone who barely makes the top ten in TNA.
Thats insane. Abyss is one of the top 5 most over wrestlers in TNA, to say other wise would be just plain stupid. Abyss is full of charisma, and even if he wasn't he has old Jim Mitchell by his side as an insurance policy, and incase you didn't realize, Mitchell is the epitome of charisma. For his size Abyss is a strong worker, much better then Lashley, Rhino, Monty Brown, or even Sting himself (granted he must be pushing 45 by now). Abyss is a perfectly credible champ, I just wish he pinned that old man 1,2,3 si I could brag about his victory even more.

In other news I think old Anubis is playing his classic heel role knowing that everyone would disagree with his Abyss bashing comments. Naughty, Anubis!
Rick GarrardPosted on 11/25/06 at 18:57:42

Lashley, Rhino, Monty Brown, or even Sting himself
I must correct you... just because Lashley looks like a roided out freak, he has a LOT more talent than WWE is currently let him show.  I think the move to ECW with him winning the ECW Title from Big Show (it's inevitable), will show us truly just how good Lashley can be.  He's not yet even begun to show his remarkably awesome ground game that he has, because he hasn't faced anyone where's he's needed to show off his championship winning amateur background skills.