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My thoughts on Destination X (Spoilers)

AnubisPosted on 03/13/06 at 05:27:45

Well, the lower half of the card was pretty solid and exciting. Nothing much else to say on that, so I'll get to the important stuff.

Ultimate X. I fucking called it, people! I knew Christopher Daniels would win. Everyone was thinking Samoa Joe would retain, but I knew. Anyone but Daniels winning that match would have been dumb booking. AJ Styles has nothing to gain as champion and Joe has nothing left to do as champion; Daniels was the only smart choice!

Speaking of Ultimate X, TNA really needs to stop putting matches with less talented workers after matches with more talented workers. Styles, Joe, and Daniels have ten times the ring ability of Monty Brown and Christian Cage. Honestly, the main event was boring, a snoozefest, at least following Ultimate X. It just didn't stand up to the bar set by Ultimate X, not even close. Hell, I fell asleep about two minutes before the end of the main event (my wife woke me up when Cage won the match). Bad placement, TNA, bad placement. Cut it out.

Honestly, does anyone actually believe that the NWA World Heavyweight Title has more prestige or value than the TNA X Division Title nowadays? Not a chance. When I look at the guys involved in both, I see one certainty. When I look at Brown, Cage, and Jeff Jarrett, I think "solid upper midcard". When I see Styles, Daniels, and Joe, I see "main event". It's that simple. Styles, Daniels, and Joe just are. As far as I'm concerned, the TNA X Division Title, is THE championship. The NWA World Heavyweight Title just doesn't cut it anymore in terms of quality.

Okay, judgment day, who was Jarrett's mystery man? I hoped beyond hope that it'd be Goldberg, in my head and in my heart, but my gut told me I was wrong, that it would be Scott Steiner. Well, my gut is pretty much always right, and I'm dumb to ignore it, and this just hammered that home, as it was indeed Steiner. Personally, I think this is a bad move. Spike may want big names, but let's face it, Steiner isn't a draw anymore. Heck, he was NEVER a draw as to the main event; his real drawing power was in his tag team days. Steiner just isn't a big name, sorry to say. Styles, Daniels, Joe, they're all bigger than Steiner already in my opinion. I will give some credit, though; Steiner did seem like he might have cleaned himself up, as he wasn't working near as slow and sloppy as his last WWE run. We'll see once he gets in the ring for a real match.
rey619Posted on 03/13/06 at 06:54:00

You always seem to think that workrate equals drawing ability Anubis... never ceases to amaze me there my friend  :P ... I guess you don't know the harsh reality of the wrestling world... big, slow men draw. Small, quick men don't. It's as simple and unfortunate as that.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 03/13/06 at 07:16:53

Workrate alone will not make a successful promotion. Variety is the spice of life as they say. If TNA was nothing but the X division style of wrestling, it wouldn't be unique and it would become boring.

Look at Hogan/Rock from WrestleMania XVIII. Not exactly 5 stars on workrate, but on charisma and the wow factor, it delivered. I'm not saying Steiner brings any of that to TNA, but he's a big name (he's a past WCW World Heavyweight Champion, and he's over on the microphone, the WWE  refused to use him correctly).

I really don't buy AJ Styles as a World Champion. I know he's a three time NWA World Heavyweight Champion, but he's not believable in the role. Now I can buy Samoa Joe as a World Champion. I'm glad TNA is building him slowly, much like the WWE is doing with Bobby Lashley.
AnubisPosted on 03/13/06 at 09:02:53

I dunno, I have to disagree. If we look at all the greatest champions of recent history, you won't find that many hosses on the list. Randy Orton, Sting, Booker T, Jeff Jarrett even . . . These guys aren't big and slow, but actually somewhat talented.

I just don't think Steiner draws anymore. I do think som3e big names are good for TNA to "pull in" the casual fans, but I seriously doubt those big names can "keep them coming". It'll get their attention, but it's guys like AJ Styles who will keep them coming back for more. AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels, and eventually guys like Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, and Roderick Strong. With the new age dawning, I think the casuals will eventually drift toward work rate over size.

By the way, what makes AJ Styles unbelievable as World Champion, yet allows Christian Cage to be credible? Cage doesn't have a whole lot of size on AJ and can't compete at all as far as in-ring ability goes. Cage only has him beat on the mic, and I don't thinik that's the be all end all (although granted it does help get a worker over). Cage doesn't suck, mind you, but I just don't see how AJ can be unbelievable while Cage is credible.

I know I'm in the minority with the "size isn't that big a deal" thing, but that is reality. Best fighter in the world is Rickson Gracie, and he's smaller than most professional wrestlers out there (at like 5'8" and 180 pounds, he's barely bigger than I am). Granted, there is a limit; I could never buy a midget as the best, but they're also not within normal human parameters. I could even buy Rey Mysterio as World Champion if he had a finisher that made his winning look believable. It's all in the packaging, in my opinion.

AJ is the heart of TNA, really, more than Jarrett could ever hope to be. Who else could possibly be more believable as their World Champion than their "Franchise"? Granted, Samoa Joe is more believable, I agree on that, but I do think AJ and Cage have equal credibility (if AJ doesn't have slightly more, even). I don't think Steiner can draw, bottom line. He'll get them to tune in and see what's up, but without guys like AJ, those fans would get bored in a hurry (unless Steiner's been taking lessons from Mariko Yoshida while I wasn't looking) because he's just not a credible main eventer and can't carry a match or an event. Even Jarrett can draw and carry matches and events; Steiner couldn't if his life depended on it, and his failure to draw at the end of WCW helps cement this. Guys like AJ and Daniels have the ability to overcome the size issue. Now we may or may not ever have a chance to find out if I'm right, as it would require TNA to get more exposure and start competing with WWE, but I still do believe I'm right on this. These guys are the future of wrestling.

That said, I'm fine with variety (there are very few styles I don't like; from garbage to technical, I like just about everything, everything but the "I'm big and I'm gonna squash people like a bug using my size" style of big man wrestling), but the match placement needs more intelligence behind it. You don't book Cage versus Brown right after Ultimate X, not if you wanna keep the fans' attention.
rey619Posted on 03/13/06 at 09:27:17

On 03/13/06 at 09:02:53, Anubis wrote:I dunno, I have to disagree. If we look at all the greatest champions of recent history, you won't find that many hosses on the list. Randy Orton, Sting, Booker T, Jeff Jarrett even . . . These guys aren't big and slow, but actually somewhat talented.
You put ORTON on a list of greatest champions? His reign lasted for 1 month... Compare your list of "great" champions to Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, Goldberg, Batista, JBL and Triple H, and you'll see who drew buyrates.

I just don't think Steiner draws anymore.
In the long run I think you're right.


With the new age dawning, I think the casuals will eventually drift toward work rate over size.
Did you join Scientology? Or CM Punk's old FIP stable the New Dawn?


By the way, what makes AJ Styles unbelievable as World Champion, yet allows Christian Cage to be credible? Cage doesn't have a whole lot of size on AJ and can't compete at all as far as in-ring ability goes. Cage only has him beat on the mic, and I don't thinik that's the be all end all (although granted it does help get a worker over). Cage doesn't suck, mind you, but I just don't see how AJ can be unbelievable while Cage is credible.
Because every wrestling fan in America knows who Christian Cage is, they know of the Unprettier and of his catchphrases. 99% of casuals know squat about AJ Styles and doesn't give a damn that probably is the best athlete in the entire wrestling world. It's all about drawing the casulas to the tv-screens, TNA doesn't need to cater to the old TNA fans, because that Disney studio of theirs'll always be jammed every show anyway.

You don't book Cage versus Brown right after Ultimate X, not if you wanna keep the fans' attention.
I do agree with you here however. Reminds me of the time they booked Jericho vs Triple H for the World Title after the Rock vs Hogan. The last match of the show should always receive the loudest pops in my opinion. I haven't seen the show, but I would guess the Ultimate X had more heat than the main event as well? Not just more workrate?
AnubisPosted on 03/13/06 at 11:05:07

First off, I made a bit of an error. I didn't actually mean "greatest", I just meant "bigger or more noteworty". My bad.  Otherwise Sting would be the only one I could have actually mentioned. Still I do feel Orton was a decent draw, he just wasn't booked correctly to get the proper reactions (due to that dumb face turn).

Actually, I dunno why so many people dislike Orton. He may still be kinda green and such, but I definitely see his ability and potential. I thought he was one of the better recent WWE champions, honestly. Especially compared to that clunky John Cena, Orton looks like a wrestling god and is better at doing his job on the mic. Cena is all about potty jokes and crudeness, while Orton has a natural heel charisma (his mic work just needs to be refined a bit, which will come with experience I think).

Like I said, I know AJ Styles can't get people to tune in. I think he's one of the reasons casuals will keep tuning in.
HugeRockStar760Posted on 03/13/06 at 14:59:26

I don't think Christian Cage is a credible champion either. He has great mic skills and charisma, but for some reason he doesn't look like a champion unlike someone like Batista, who the big gold belt seemed made for.

Although, Christian could always grow into the championship. Shawn Michaels wouldn't have seemed like a credible champion either during the Hogan years. I guess it all depends on perception by the fans.

But you'll never see a workrate only promotion get over with the mainstream. Not that it'd be a bad idea or anything, but you're betting that the average wrestling fan has that much of an attention span to watch.
91Posted on 03/13/06 at 18:48:19

On 03/13/06 at 11:05:07, Anubis wrote:Still I do feel Orton was a decent draw
I like Orton well enough, and any figures can easily be pinpointed on lousy booking that scuppered his reign, fair enough, but at no point can anyone say Orton was or is a draw until given the chance to prove it, since he's never had an extended run at the top and the few shows he did headline didn't blow anyones mind in terms of buys. Frankly of the other names you mentioned, Sting is the only one who is a proven draw, with Jarrett and Booker both blighted by being WCWs headline guys when the promotion was dead in the water.

As far as the whole Christian vs A.J. debate as to who is the bigger draw, that's easy - as Rey noted, every wrestling fan knows who Christian is, not everyone knows A.J. (the 99% of casuals not knowing him is a bit harsh, but the point is there).

What TNA are doing is smart - people like Sting and Christian can draw the casual fans, A.J. and Samoa Joe can keep them. You'll get those fans who give TNA a few passing glances and check out a few shows because of the name guys they have in Sting, Christian and Jarrett (I'm not sure on Steiner - everyones current memory of him is how badly he sucked in the WWE, which won't exactly draw people in their droves). Upon checking the name guys out, they'll also see the X-Division guys who may well be the ones to persuade them to keep watching. Once the ratings are up long term to the point where everyone attending a WWE event has at least HEARD of Samoa Joe, that's the time to start promoting him and the like as the true main eventers.

By the way, you're probably right in that the X-Division title means more than the NWA world title these days, but they can't honestly go around actively promoting that, it wouldn't make sense. If the WWE found that the IC title was considered more prestigious than the WWE title, the solution would be to actively try and fix that perception, not just shift the IC title into the main event every month, that's just lazy. Ultimately the world title always needs to mean more than any other title in the promotion for continuities sake if nothing else.
CrplsPosted on 03/13/06 at 22:43:00

Best fighter in the world is Rickson Gracie
Fedor says Hi.
AnubisPosted on 03/14/06 at 06:57:35

Fedor, maybe the best in the next generation I'd say.  After all, Rickson is all but officially retired.

If we had a time machine, though, and put them against each other in their primes, Rickson would rape Fedor.  I mean, come on, he's the Goldberg of MMA, undefeated.  His unofficial record (which dates before the days of UFC and PRIDE and thus aren't "on official record") is like 600 wins without a single loss or something like that.  He even toppled a 600-pounder (although it took I think three hours to do it).

Simply put, Rickson is the MMA GOD.  That's why his techniques are some of the most respected in the world.  He's even contracted to like train certain federal agents and some military even.