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TNA bullshit on GenNext

AnubisPosted on 02/16/06 at 09:54:32

Read this report from another site:

TNA will be removing Roderick Strong and Austin Aries from their bookings for at least the next several tapings and possibly as long as several months in a disciplinary move for willingly putting themselves in a position where they could have missed the Against All Odds PPV this past weekend, despite orders to skip a Ring of Honor event to travel to Florida.

Aries and Strong were among a crew of TNA wrestlers scheduled to appear at Ring of Honor's Lake Grove, New York event the night before Against All Odds in Orlando. Due to the heavy snowstorm that was heading into the Northeast, TNA management requested that everyone leave immediately for the airport and booked them on flights to Orlando. Jay Lethal, Alex Shelley, and Homicide all left and flew to Orlando. Aries and Strong, who hold the ROH Tag Team belts, remained and worked the show. They flew to Florida the next morning and appeared on the PPV as scheduled in a <censored spoiler>.

<More spoiler>. Their storyline where they and Alex Shelley had been complaining that they were being given chances in TNA, which teased an eventual showdown with Jerry Lynn, was also dropped. The company was unhappy with the two not doing what was requested of them, which led to the decision to "bench them" for the time being. I'm not sure of exactly why but there is more heat on Aries for the situation than there is on Strong.

I was told by a number of sources that while TNA does value Aries and Strong's work, they unfortunately ended up being made an example of because management is tired of talents missing PPV events when advertised. Although they made the PPV, Strong and Aries are being penalized by TNA in an attempt to send a message to the locker room and will have to pay the price.

Can you believe this bullshit?  I wish ROH would get a TV deal, then I'd never watch WWE OR TNA again.  This is bullshit to the extreme.  I think TNA is way out of line here. Aries and Strong may work for TNA, but they also work for ROH and not only do they get bigger pushes in ROH as Generation Next, but they also had ROH's belts, which I think obligated them to do whatever they could to make it to both shows.

TNA is quickly screwing things up. Now if Aries and Strong hadn't made it there, then punishment would be fitting. As it stands, they're being punished for no reason whatsoever. It's not like they have exclusive written contracts with TNA; on the contrary, it seems to me like they give ROH higher priority, which I think is the right move on their part, especially given how poorly TNA is treating them.

I only wish ROH would get a TV deal so I could watch them. WWE has Triple H, TNA has Jeff Jarrett, I want a product without an egomaniac at the top.  This just wants me to see ROH even more, since while I've never seen it, I have a feeling Aries and Strong aren't wrestling at peak potential in TNA right now (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is just totally unjustified. Aries and Strong made it to both shows, and I think they should be rewarded for having such excellent work ethic.
UnrightPosted on 02/16/06 at 12:35:22

TNA is upset that Aries & Strong took a gamble with their PPV.  If the snowstorm was worse than it was, then Aries & Strong wouldn't have been able to make the TNA PPV. The consequence of missing a TNA PPV wasn't enough to deter them from doing the ROH show.

If I gave a friend some money to hold onto, and they decided to gamble it. Even if they won, I'd be pissed because there was a strong possibility that they could lose.

I hear ya on ROH though.. I wish they'd travel to Florida. One of these days I'll have to pick up some DVDs..
Perverted_IconPosted on 02/16/06 at 14:31:58

TNA needs to have it's workers at their PPVs.  Working ROH when two feet of snow was going to fall in the Northeast was a big risk for these guys.  
With the company being plagued in recent months by no-shows like Jeff Hardy and Apolo, TNA needed to make a point.  I don't necessarily blame these guys, as I'm sure they're not getting paid too much by TNA, but they knew something like this could happen.
I've heard people say that this wouldn't happen to AJ Styles or Samoa Joe, etc, but Jeff Hardy is a bigger name than both, and he hasn't been seen at all since his last no-show and was being jobbed out before that.
rey619Posted on 02/16/06 at 14:39:01

If RoH gets a TV deal, I'll be a sad man. Don't get me wrong, I love RoH, but that's because I love the indy format of fewer but longer shows. For me, TNA jumped the shark when they started airing 1-hour squash match shows on TV.

For the record, I don't think TNA is treating Gen Next or the RoH guys in particular badly, as they are almost always showcased on PPV's, in lower midcard matches that are quite good. Their work in RoH is a lot better though.

I don't blame Aries and Strong for staying put, the RoH show was enough of a jigsaw puzzle with all the TNA stars dropping out.

And Anubis.. you're possibly one of the biggest RoH marks around here.. yet you haven't seen a single show.. that's... peculiar.. you are praising RoH before other companies, something you cannot do without having watched the product. It's like saying coke is better than pepsi without having tasted coke (but you've heard it should be really good)

I urge you to purchase a couple of DVD's, as I told you, older shows sell for 10 bucks a piece, hardly a lot of money. And then you have torrents... which are free..
AnubisPosted on 02/16/06 at 21:16:10

Yep, I'm waiting for the signups for the torrents at the moment, and am anxiously awaiting seeing the product.  Thing is, I have no reason to believe ROH isn'y that good, so my gut tells they are, and I always go with my gut, even if it is peculiar. :P

I just think that TNA making an example out of two guys who had the work ethic to make it to BOTH of their obligations is unethical to the maximum, and I've lost a ton (almsot all) of my respect for TNA because of it.  These guys had two obligations, and they put in the effort to make it to both shows.  They should be rewarded, not punished.

I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to give TNA the middle finger and not work there anymore after that, honestly.  I know I wouldn't put up with that kinda of bullshit, that's for sure.  I would go where I'm wanted and appreciated, not where I get punished for holding up all of my obligations.  TNA can bugger off for that nonsense.  The punishments on these guys is 255% unjustified, and I don't see how anyone could think otherwise.  You don't punish people for things that could have happened; that ain't how this country works, folks.  You punish people who actually do something wrong.  They made it to both shows, so there shouldn't have been a problem.
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/16/06 at 23:06:46

On 02/16/06 at 21:16:10, Anubis wrote:You don't punish people for things that could have happened; that ain't how this country works, folks. You punish people who actually do something wrong. They made it to both shows, so there shouldn't have been a problem.
But you see, they did something wrong. It was a good wrong, but a wrong. They didn't listen to management.

Due to the heavy snowstorm that was heading into the Northeast, TNA management requested that everyone leave immediately.

Don't get me wrong, I think what happened to them was BS, but TNA had to do it since they didn't follow orders/request.
AnubisPosted on 02/16/06 at 23:23:05

On 02/16/06 at 23:06:46, TiLoBrown wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think what happened to them was BS, but TNA had to do it since they didn't follow orders/request.
TNA management is in the wrong, not Aries and Strong.

Last time I checked, this was America.  Also, last time I checked, requests and orders were two different things.  Oh, and one other thing, the last time I checked, you don't get punished in America for "could have" and "what if".

Aries and Strong have ZERO obligation to fulfill requests by TNA management.  They're aren't under written/exclusive contracts nor was it even an order.  It was a request, and Aries and Strong made the decision (the correct decision) to work both shows in order to fulfill both obligations.

This is basically TNA spitting in the face of ROH, and it's just not right.  Aries and Strong did nothing wrong.  No one is obligated to adhere to "requests" in this country.  That's all the proof I need to know that TNA management stepped over the line here.

Why not make examples of people who actually do something wrong (i.e. no-show with no excuse)?  TNA keeps bringing in people who just aren't reliable (Kevin Nash, Sean Waltman, Scott Hall, Jeff Hardy) who also have very little talent left these days, certainly not worth putting up with their nonsense.  Those guys are has-beens.  Aries and Strong, they're the future and they managed to fulfill both obligations successfully.  Where I come from, people with that kind of work ethic get rewarded, not punished.  TNA was unethical to punish them, plain and simple.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/16/06 at 23:35:19

Though I do agree this is a "no harm, no foul" situation since they did make it to both shows, I definitely see TNA's point.  Anubis, you said that Aries and Strong have ZERO obligation?  Well, they do if they want to be on cable television and seen by a bigger audience than they will in the indies.  Sure, they might be the future, but they're not the big stars of right now and they need the TV exposure.  So if TNA is putting you on PPV and getting you some exposure and you don't fulfill their request, you have to expect some backlash.

To use a metaphor, it's like working at a store at the counter.  You go to the bathroom and leave the cash register open.  No money gets stolen, but when you come back and your boss is there ready to yell at you, are you going to be able to say, "Well no money was stolen, so what's the big deal?"
AnubisPosted on 02/16/06 at 23:47:43

I don't think your analogy is very good. You see, leaving a register open makes it HIGHLY PROBABLE that money will get stolen. Aries and Strong working the ROH did NOT make it "highly probable" that they would miss the TNA PPV.

Yeah, bad weather, big deal. Even if they couldn't get a flight out of the northeast, who's to say they couldn't have themselves driven a couple hundred miles south and catch a flight out of somewhere else? Who's to say they didn't formulate a backup plan upon deciding to stay? I'm betting they did.

TNA dropped the ball, here. Your analogy doesn't fit because the seriousness and probability don't match up. Aries and Strong didn't leave the register open, they were fulfilling their promises. They promised to be at both shows and they were at both shows.

Again, I can't see the facts supporting TNA is the slightest.

EDIT: Hey, at least this took my attention away from Vince, ya?  This has me more pissed off than things Vince does because, simply put, I EXPECT Vince to be a jackass; I don't expect it from TNA, and thus hold them to a higher standard.
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 00:07:56

Guess what, you can get in trouble for not following requests. It happens to me almost every day at work.

You say they could have driven south and got another flight, well what if there was too much snow for driving due to poor roads?
Snabbit888Posted on 02/17/06 at 00:08:37

The point is they didn't do what the people who pay their checks told them to.   And sure, from a practical standpoint, nothing bad happened but all should be well.  But who do you think is going to be in line for a push later - the guy who does what the company asks of him or the guy that doesn't?
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 00:24:24

On 02/17/06 at 00:08:37, Snabbit888 wrote:The point is they didn't do what the people who pay their checks told them to. And sure, from a practical standpoint, nothing bad happened but all should be well. But who do you think is going to be in line for a push later - the guy who does what the company asks of him or the guy that doesn't?
*Ding* I've been told that is pretty much the reason I don't get promoted, I don't do what management tells me and I mouth off....really TNA did what they had to do.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/17/06 at 00:29:14

to answer your question about the push in regards to TNA Ryan... it's Jeff Jarrett and the James Boys... they are the only ones that get the push.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 00:48:58

On 02/16/06 at 23:23:05, Anubis wrote:Last time I checked, this was America.....  
Oh man.. No offense Anubis, but any argument that follows those words immediately losses all credibility in my book.  ;D

AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 01:45:43

I'm not a big fan of American usually myself, but in this case, it stands as a very strong point.

Who would get the push?  Around here, the push would go to the person who has enough work ethic to fulfill ALL prior committments, Aries and Strong in this case.  TNA is starting to become a small little clone of WWE at this rate.  Such a pity, they had so much potential.

Abusing their talent like this will only kill their chances of competing against WWE.  My thinking may not always be the most popular, but I actually am in the majority this time around, and I know I'm right.

I honestly can't understand the other side of this, those agreeing with TNA.  Those agreeing with TNA strike me as about as sensible as someone wearing a poncho into Death Valley (or any other extremely hot locale); which is to say, it strikes me as completely insane.

The facts just don't support TNA here.  Aries and Strong committed to ROH first.  ROH is higher priority to Aries and Strong because they get more respect there.  Aries and Strong have no written contracts with TNA; TNA thus has very little authority over Aries and Strong.  TNA was out of line to make the request in the first place.  Requests are not orders.  In all honesty, it sounds like TNA trying to put the screws to ROH to me.  That kind of crap is unethical, plain and simple.  I knwo I've never seen ROH, but I know bullshit when I see it, and that's precisely what these punishments for Aries and Strong are.

How do you explain away all these facts?  It can't be done.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/17/06 at 02:15:18

So basically it's hypothetically like WWE telling Brock Lesnar "Hey you better get here for WM22 in Chicago on Sunday, Godzilla's headed toward Tokyo" all while Lesnar is hypothetically booked to main event as the New Japan Champion on the Saturday night prior to WM22 in the Tokyo Egg Dome.

Of course, it's this sort of small territory backstabbing that made it easy for Vince McMahon to one by one dismantle the old territory system that was in place.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 02:46:28

On 02/17/06 at 01:45:43, Anubis wrote:How do you explain away all these facts?  It can't be done.
Damn.. When you say it like that, it's a challenge I can't resist. Let's see...

On 02/17/06 at 01:45:43, Anubis wrote: Who would get the push?  Around here, the push would go to the person who has enough work ethic to fulfill ALL prior committments
At the time the shows were booked, TNA had no problem with wrestlers working both shows. Suddenly a snowstorm kicks in and flights were being cancelled like crazy. Here in Tampa all the hotels were booked because of all the flight that were re-directed to Tampa International Airport because they couldn't fly north. TNA doesn't want to look like a third rate organization, so they call in their workers early so that they can run their PPV as advertised.

Aries & Strong hear the order/request (your original post states both) and decide to ignore it. They decide to wrestle the ROH show knowing full well that it's possible that they will miss TNA's PPV.  

They may have great work ethic and all, but their loyalty lies with ROH, not TNA. So why should TNA push them? Hell, why should TNA even keep them on the roster?

On 02/17/06 at 01:45:43, Anubis wrote:Abusing their talent like this will only kill their chances of competing against WWE.
There is a difference between abusing your talent and letting your talent abuse you.  If it had snowed more, then Aries & Strong would have no-showed. The weather determined their level of commitment to TNA, not their work ethic.

On 02/17/06 at 01:45:43, Anubis wrote: I honestly can't understand the other side of this, those agreeing with TNA. [...] Aries and Strong have no written contracts with TNA; TNA thus has very little authority over Aries and Strong.  TNA was out of line to make the request in the first place.  Requests are not orders.  In all honesty, it sounds like TNA trying to put the screws to ROH to me.
Really? You can't understand TNA's position? Re-read the report you posted, it states their position very clearly. "...a disciplinary move for willingly putting themselves in a position where they could have missed the Against All Odds PPV..." and "...management is tired of talents missing PPV events when advertised.".

You seem to be under some notion that Aries & Strong never doubted for a moment that they would be able to work both show. Like they were some sort of psychic weather forecasters.  Do you remember the Blizzard of '95? The pretty much shut down the North Eastern US. 154 dead. Blizzards disrupt travel, sometimes for several days or weeks. That's a fact that I can back up with a ton of evidence if need be.

In essence, Aries & Strong told TNA that they were choosing not to show up, then due to a break in the weather, managed to show up anyways. TNA is supposed to be happy and forgiving? Odd reaction.

It's a tough break for Generation Next, but it's a result of the decisions they made.
AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 04:07:05

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:At the time the shows were booked, TNA had no problem with wrestlers working both shows. Suddenly a snowstorm kicks in and flights were being cancelled like crazy. Here in Tampa all the hotels were booked because of all the flight that were re-directed to Tampa International Airport because they couldn't fly north. TNA doesn't want to look like a third rate organization, so they call in their workers early so that they can run their PPV as advertised.
Here's where you made your first mistake.  Austin Aries and Roderick Strong weren't advertised for the PPV.  In fact, they were advertised for the ROH show.  What would it say about Aries and Strong if they were to blow off the company that made them (when advertised to be on their show) just to go job in another company (when they weren't even originally advertised to be on that show)?

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:Aries & Strong hear the order/request (your original post states both) and decide to ignore it. They decide to wrestle the ROH show knowing full well that it's possible that they will miss TNA's PPV.
Officially, it was a request.  Their priority was obviously with ROH, as it should have been.  Gee, main event ROH or job in the opening match for TNA?  Not a tough call.  It was a choice between missing one for certain (ROH)for a lower spot on another card (TNA), or possibly missing one of the shows (TNA) for a high spot on another card (ROH) while retaining the chance of appearing on both.

I doubt anyone here, if in the same position, would have chosen to give in to TNA's request.  It would have been a really dumb career move, assuming they believe that ROH might one day expand far enough to compete in a "big three" of the new decade (which they probably do, and I believe it as well).

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:They may have great work ethic and all, but their loyalty lies with ROH, not TNA. So why should TNA push them? Hell, why should TNA even keep them on the roster?
The better question is, what motivation do Aries and Strong have for sticking with TNA if this is the way they're going to be treated?  Wouldn't it be better to just take their chances with ROH?

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:There is a difference between abusing your talent and letting your talent abuse you. If it had snowed more, then Aries & Strong would have no-showed. The weather determined their level of commitment to TNA, not their work ethic.
Except you don't know that.  There's nothing to support that statement, really.

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:Really? You can't understand TNA's position? Re-read the report you posted, it states their position very clearly. "...a disciplinary move for willingly putting themselves in a position where they could have missed the Against All Odds PPV..."
Never thought that such a thing was bad . . . Wrestling is about taking risks.  Aries risks maiming or killing himself every time he climbs to the top turnbuckle; just ask Sid or Hayabusa.

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:and "...management is tired of talents missing PPV events when advertised.".
Except Aries and Strong did show up and weren't advertised to be there to begin with.

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:You seem to be under some notion that Aries & Strong never doubted for a moment that they would be able to work both show. Like they were some sort of psychic weather forecasters. Do you remember the Blizzard of '95? The pretty much shut down the North Eastern US. 154 dead. Blizzards disrupt travel, sometimes for several days or weeks. That's a fact that I can back up with a ton of evidence if need be.
Shit happens.  I believe they were indeed confident that they would make both shows.

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:In essence, Aries & Strong told TNA that they were choosing not to show up, then due to a break in the weather, managed to show up anyways. TNA is supposed to be happy and forgiving? Odd reaction.
I disagree.  I think they planned to make it to both shows all along, but merely were "more willing" to possibly miss the TNA PPV than definitely miss the ROH PPV.  You can't tell me that you or anyone else here wouldn't have made the same decision under the same circumstances.

On 02/17/06 at 02:46:28, Unright wrote:It's a tough break for Generation Next, but it's a result of the decisions they made.
Actually, I'd say that TNA's reaction is a tough break for TNA because they're alienating all the ROH fans, which probably makes up a decent chuck of their PPV-buying fanbase.  Not a smart business move I'd say.

Now if they hadn't shown up, then sure, I'd understand the punishments.  Thing is, they DID show up, so that changes everything.  Their showing up puts all the facts in their favor and against TNA's.
PulsarPosted on 02/17/06 at 04:15:22

Anubis, you say you would've chosen RoH over TNA? How about this... 600 people live vs. Thousands live and around the world watching on PPV.....low payoff for Indy promotion vs. Big Payoff for National Organization.....tough choice
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 04:46:10

1) I would have worked the TNA PPV over the ROH house show, so don't speak for the entire board.

2) Advertised or not, if they're booked on the card they should be there which is why I don't blame them for going to the ROH show and I don't blame TNA for punishing them.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 04:54:04

On 02/17/06 at 04:07:05, Anubis wrote:Here's where you made your first mistake.  Austin Aries and Roderick Strong weren't advertised for the PPV.  In fact, they were advertised for the ROH show.  What would it say about Aries and Strong if they were to blow off the company that made them (when advertised to be on their show) just to go job in another company (when they weren't even originally advertised to be on that show)?
Well shit. I don't watch TNA (it's on too late) so I don't know what was or wasn't advertised. All their website hype seems to be taken down as well. I was basing that knowledge on the report you were quoting.

Officially, it was a request.  Their priority was obviously with ROH, as it should have been.  Gee, main event ROH or job in the opening match for TNA?  Not a tough call.  It was a choice between missing one for certain (ROH)for a lower spot on another card (TNA), or possibly missing one of the shows (TNA) for a high spot on another card (ROH) while retaining the chance of appearing on both.
Exactly, their decision was to give ROH a higher priority. That's what alienated TNA. Aries & Strong may have viewed it as a beneficial decision for _THEM_, but to TNA it was a slap in the face.

I doubt anyone here, if in the same position, would have chosen to give in to TNA's request.
Anubis... You've got to stop trying to sound like you're speaking for everyone. I don't care if anybody else agrees or disagrees with either one of us. I'm discussing this with you.

It would have been a really dumb career move, assuming they believe that ROH might one day expand far enough to compete in a "big three" of the new decade (which they probably do, and I believe it as well).
Again.. Aries & Strong made a decision and choose ROH over TNA.

The better question is, what motivation do Aries and Strong have for sticking with TNA if this is the way they're going to be treated?  Wouldn't it be better to just take their chances with ROH?
I'm sure when they made their decision to possibly no-show a TNA PPV, that there would be punishment. I'm also sure they made the PPV anyways to try to avoid punishment.

Never thought that such a thing was bad . . . Wrestling is about taking risks.  Aries risks maiming or killing himself every time he climbs to the top turnbuckle; just ask Sid or Hayabusa.
What? I should ask Sid if jumping off the top turnbuckle is similar to missing a wrestling event? What?

Shit happens.  I believe they were indeed confident that they would make both shows.
It was a gamble. I think it's more likely they took advantage of the weather clearing up to try to avoid losing their jobs. Did you know it snowed 29 inches in New York where the show was held? It was a record snowfall.

I disagree.  I think they planned to make it to both shows all along, but merely were "more willing" to possibly miss the TNA PPV than definitely miss the ROH PPV.  You can't tell me that you or anyone else here wouldn't have made the same decision under the same circumstances.
Well, neither of us know what was in their minds, so it's a moot point. But I agree that they were more willing to miss the TNA PPV than the ROH show (not a PPV). A few other ROH wrestlers were faced with the same decision (Jay Lethal, Homicide, & Alex Shelley) and decided to leave to make the TNA PPV.

Now if they hadn't shown up, then sure, I'd understand the punishments.  Thing is, they DID show up, so that changes everything.  Their showing up puts all the facts in their favor and against TNA's.
Yeah.. This time they made the PPV. What about next time? We've already agreed several times that Aries & Strong choose ROH over TNA.  That's why TNA is "punishing" them by not having any kind of PPV worthy storylines center around them. It's not really punishment, it's smart booking. Save the higher spots for those with written contracts.

Why should TNA push them when they're not even sure if they'll show up when booked?
AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 05:17:20

On 02/17/06 at 04:15:22, Pulsar wrote:Anubis, you say you would've chosen RoH over TNA? How about this... 600 people live vs. Thousands live and around the world watching on PPV.....low payoff for Indy promotion vs. Big Payoff for National Organization.....tough choice
If Samoa Joe is working for $500 per show, I doubt Aries and Strong are getting paid too awful much.

On 02/17/06 at 04:54:04, Unright wrote:What? I should ask Sid if jumping off the top turnbuckle is similar to missing a wrestling event? What?
The point is that the business is about risks.

On 02/17/06 at 04:54:04, Unright wrote:Well, neither of us know what was in their minds, so it's a moot point. But I agree that they were more willing to miss the TNA PPV than the ROH show (not a PPV). A few other ROH wrestlers were faced with the same decision (Jay Lethal, Homicide, & Alex Shelley) and decided to leave to make the TNA PPV.
Well I should inform you that there is one notable difference between Aries & Strong and Lethal, Homicide, and Shelley: Aries & Strong were booked to job in an opening bout while Lethal, Homicide, and Shelley all have prominent storylines at the moment.  Lethal beat the cream of the X Division crop, Shelley is working with Jarrett, and Homicide was in that big match against the James Gang (which is big even though they lost.

Can you or anyone else honestly (seriously) say you'd rather job in the opening bout on national PPV than be in the upper card of the top indy promotion?  TiLo already said he would (although I can't imagine why), but I'm interested in whether others would.  I know I wouldn't.  TNA most likely isn't paying them that much more than ROH is.

On 02/17/06 at 04:54:04, Unright wrote:Yeah.. This time they made the PPV. What about next time? We've already agreed several times that Aries & Strong choose ROH over TNA.  That's why TNA is "punishing" them by not having any kind of PPV worthy storylines center around them. It's not really punishment, it's smart booking. Save the higher spots for those with written contracts.
If I'm a boss, I don't base my decisions on speculation, I base my decision on facts.  IF they missed it next time, THEN they would be disciplined.  Simple as that.

On 02/17/06 at 04:54:04, Unright wrote:Why should TNA push them when they're not even sure if they'll show up when booked?
Why should Aries and Strong put TNA ahead of ROH if they're gonng be bumped down three places on the card for chump change?
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 05:35:11

I'd chose TNA because TNA is tv. More exposure. Chances are more bookers saw the PPV over the house show, and same for fans as well.

On 02/17/06 at 05:17:20, Anubis wrote:

If I'm a boss, I don't base my decisions on speculation, I base my decision on facts.  IF they missed it next time, THEN they would be disciplined.  Simple as that.
Heres a fact, they chose ROH over TNA...

AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 06:21:54

Call me old-fashioned, but I would rather work for a company that respects me over a company that would garner me more exposure.  I'm about ethical business and rewarding people who do things good while disciplining people who actually make mistakes.

I'm actually quite surprised that people around here support TNA's decision.  This is the last place I was expecting to hear of anti-ROH and pro-TNA positions.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/17/06 at 06:33:39

I would choose TNA over ROH too.  TNA is doing what they have to do.  They're still going to use Aries and Strong.  But they're not going to push a couple of guys who showed that their loyalty is to a (sorta) competing company.  They didn't fire Aries and Strong.  They haven't told them they'll never be pushed.  They're just going to give priority over them right now because Aries and Strong said, "Our loyalty is with ROH."  So TNA's push loyalty is going to be to guys who are loyal to TNA.  Maybe Aries and Strong will be treated like gods in ROH.  If they're content with their decision and such, good for them.

Anubis, I think what is happening is you're getting a bit confused on the counter point.  I know at least for me, I'm not saying that Aries and Strong were the abd guys here.  They kept both commitments, they made both shows, that's fine.  I'm just saying I can see why TNA would be weary of pushing them rgiht now, because they picked ROH first, TNA second.  And with the wave of guys like Jeff Hardy, Apolo, etc. no-showing these events left and right, they have to be stern.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 06:46:23

On 02/17/06 at 05:17:20, Anubis wrote:Can you or anyone else honestly (seriously) say you'd rather job in the opening bout on national PPV than be in the upper card of the top indy promotion?  TiLo already said he would (although I can't imagine why), but I'm interested in whether others would.  I know I wouldn't.  TNA most likely isn't paying them that much more than ROH is.
Well yeah...  It's not like Homicide, Lethal, or Shelley have severed ties to ROH. ROH understands that they come in second to a bigger promotion's PPV. Nobody would be punished by ROH for missing ROH's show, but they would be punished by TNA for missing TNA's PPV.

Plus Aries & Strong may be low on the totem pole, but they did make the PPV. And now they have no chance of advancement since they dissed TNA.

If I'm a boss, I don't base my decisions on speculation, I base my decision on facts.  IF they missed it next time, THEN they would be disciplined.  Simple as that.
In business, there are very few facts. You have to go by speculation, and intuition, and gut feeling. If I was a boss and a suspected that someone was unreliable, I wouldn't place them in a position of importance.

Why should Aries and Strong put TNA ahead of ROH if they're gonng be bumped down three places on the card for chump change?
Well, they weren't exactly putting TNA first to begin with, so maybe TNA is just helping them out by not making it a problem anymore.
ZedjaPosted on 02/17/06 at 08:20:48

If you are hired for an event in any company (wrestling or not) and then gamble with the probability attending the event, you'd normally be fired or at least never be considered for following events.
AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 08:39:24

Again, they committed to ROH long before TNA decided to book them, so I would think that would make Aries and Strong untrustworthy to just blow ROH off like that without damn good reason.

I can understand TNA not giving Aries and Strong main event pushes.  Heck, I'd understand that regardless.  What I have a problem with is TNA's wanting to "discipline" Aries and Strong and depush them below what they're already at, which actually sounds like TNA is planning to bury them completely.  That's what I have a problem with.  TNA giving priority to TNA stars, I dig that, but I don't dig punishing people for doing nothing wrong.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/17/06 at 08:50:33

And there's a good chance that TNA officials think Aries and Strong did the "respected" thing by honoring the ROH commitment, but they have to look out for #1 first, and #1 is TNA.  They put TNA in a tough spot, so they're protecting their assets.  Your point is well taken, Anubis; I just disagree (to an extent).
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 09:00:17

OK, I really stopped paying attention to this thread as I think you guys are missing the one point that matters, and that Anubis pointed out.

Aries and Strong were not booked at the PPV. Their match had no part of any storylines. Styles and Joe and Daniels had no reason to choose the RoH show, Homicide is a member of the LAX, and Jay Lethal was about to win the biggest match of his career (yes, winning a four-corner match on PPV is bigger than winning the RoH Pure title, or defeating Low Ki). Lethal and Homicide were not booked at the RoH show either.

Since you're so fond of analogies, try this one (it's actually pretty good).

You have two jobs. One pays more than the other. In good time, the lesser paid job asks you to work on Saturday. The job that pays more is not sure if it has something for you. Then, just before you're about to work the lesser paid job, the higher paid job said that it might have something for you as well, but that means you have to skip the job that you already promised to do.

Aries and Strong chose to honor their promise to not ruin any more for their employer. It's not like the TNA PPV hinged on their appearance, or that they ruined important storylines (like Waltman, Hardy and Apolo did).

I'm with Anubis on this one, TNA is becoming more and more like the WWE, and I don't like that one bit.
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 09:08:16

On 02/17/06 at 08:20:48, Zedja wrote:If you are hired for an event in any company (wrestling or not) and then gamble with the probability attending the event, you'd normally be fired or at least never be considered for following events.
So you would not honor your prior commitments because you suddenly got a higher paid one? Even WWE allows indy worker to fulfill their contracted obligations.

Btw, congrats on winning your first gold medals since 94 ;)
AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 10:00:41

rey619 laid it out even better than I did, and much more smoothly.  I also wasn't aware that Lethal and Homicide weren't booked for the ROH show, meaning the only person who really jumped was Shelley, who just happens to be in an angle with Jeff Jarrett himself.

rey619 said it best, I really can't add anything else to what he laid out.
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 15:23:17

If they weren't booked how did they make the PPV? I said it doesn't matter if they were advertised or not, if they're booked they should make it which is why I think both parties did what was right.
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 15:46:25

Of course it matters if the match was advertised or not. If a match that wasn't advertised is cancelled, nobody will know. They could probably put someone else to wrestle the Naturals.

Now I understand why they had the Naturals win the match.

If TNA had, let's say, have Strong and Aries win the #1 contenders tournament instead of Dutt/Sabin, I would say Gen Next had gone to the PPV instead. And hey, the RoH Tag Team Champs vs the NWA Tag Team champs would have made for a better angle than The Injury Crew Express(Dutt & Sabin)
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 15:52:24

Of course it matters. Just because the fans don't know doesn't mean it doesn't matter to management. If you're booked you work its that simple.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 16:36:24

On 02/17/06 at 09:00:17, rey619 wrote:OK, I really stopped paying attention to this thread as I think you guys are missing the one point that matters, and that Anubis pointed out.

Aries and Strong were not booked at the PPV. Their match had no part of any storylines.
Being "not booked" for a card means you don't have a match or anything to do. Aries & Strong were booked to go 10 minutes against the Naturals. From the report in Anubis' first post "Their storyline where they and Alex Shelley had been complaining that they were being given chances in TNA, which teased an eventual showdown with Jerry Lynn..."

Since you're so fond of analogies, try this one (it's actually pretty good).

You have two jobs. One pays more than the other. In good time, the lesser paid job asks you to work on Saturday. The job that pays more is not sure if it has something for you. Then, just before you're about to work the lesser paid job, the higher paid job said that it might have something for you as well, but that means you have to skip the job that you already promised to do.
That's not really a metaphor, it's a description of the situation.

A metaphor would be: You have some money and a friend. Your friend takes your money and plays roulette with it. By the time you stop him, he happens to have broke even. Should you be upset at your friend for gambling your money? Even though none was lost?

Aries and Strong chose to honor their promise to not ruin any more for their employer. It's not like the TNA PPV hinged on their appearance, or that they ruined important storylines (like Waltman, Hardy and Apolo did).

I'm with Anubis on this one, TNA is becoming more and more like the WWE, and I don't like that one bit.
No, the TNA PPV didn't hinge on their appearance,  but their future in TNA did.

Look, you guys (Rey & Anubis) are acting like TNA is going to march Strong & Aries out back and give them the Old Yeller treatment. They aren't. Aries & Strong were put in a  situation that literally meant that they had to choose between the two feds and they didn't choose TNA.

Maybe this has to be pointed out, but TNA is a much bigger fed than ROH. ROH runs monthly shows in it's region and gets by on DVD sales. TNA has 2 nation-wide TV shows and monthly PPVs. They are poised to become serious competition for the WWE. Comparing ROH and TNA is like comparing OVV and WWE.

To TNA, Aries & Strong choosing to work the ROH show at potentially TNA's expense means that they don't really want to work for TNA.
UnrightPosted on 02/17/06 at 16:51:57

On 02/17/06 at 15:46:25, rey619 wrote:Of course it matters if the match was advertised or not. If a match that wasn't advertised is cancelled, nobody will know. They could probably put someone else to wrestle the Naturals.
Yeah... People never notice when a match is thrown together at the last minute.

If TNA had, let's say, have Strong and Aries win the #1 contenders tournament instead of Dutt/Sabin, I would say Gen Next had gone to the PPV instead. And hey, the RoH Tag Team Champs vs the NWA Tag Team champs would have made for a better angle than The Injury Crew Express(Dutt & Sabin)
TNA is trying to rise to the top, they had no obligation (legal, ethical, or moral) to try to promote ROH alongside them.
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 16:55:46

On 02/17/06 at 15:52:24, TiLoBrown wrote:Of course it matters. Just because the fans don't know doesn't mean it doesn't matter to management. If you're booked you work its that simple.
They were also booked on the RoH show, so if it is that simple, they should work both places.. which they did.

It doesn't matter if TNA is bigger than RoH, what matters is that Aries and Strong made commitments to be one place, and they honored that request. They also said they would be at another place, and they were.

To me it appears as if TNA is punishing Aries & Strong for what Waltman and Hardy has done before. The two in question got numerous chances to redeem themselves, but they didn't. Now, after ONE near-no-show, Aries & Strong are being punished for having work ethics?

Sorry, you can say whatever you want, doesn't change my views on the subject.
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 17:01:26

On 02/17/06 at 16:51:57, Unright wrote:TNA is trying to rise to the top, they had no obligation (legal, ethical, or moral) to try to promote ROH alongside them.
Still, they mentioned that Aries and Strong were stablemates in RoH, so they aren't totally ignorant of other companies. They didn't have to advertise the match as RoH vs TNA, but everyone who has a certain interest in wrestling would know it for what it was, and possibly draw more viewers.
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/17/06 at 17:12:21

On 02/17/06 at 16:55:46, rey619 wrote:

They were also booked on the RoH show, so if it is that simple, they should work both places.. which they did.

Which I respect them for, just like I respect TNA for benching them.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/17/06 at 17:27:51

I'm trying really hard, but I don't understand why people can't understand why TNA would be tentative about pushing/using Aries & Strong.  Sure, they made both shows, but they chose TNA SECOND.  So why are you (Anubis and rey619) getting worked up that TNA is now going to choose Aries & Strong SECOND when considering who to push/use?

I respect Aries/Strong for trying to honor their commitments, I do, but every action as an equal and opposite reaction.  ROH is going to love them for making their commitment while TNA is going to be weary because they jeopardized making theirs and made them second fiddle.  Aries/Strong are big boys and I'm sure they knew of the pros/cons when they chose to do the ROH show.
rey619Posted on 02/17/06 at 17:56:06

As I understood it, they are likely to be suspended for their actions, which is different from, let's say, not getting a tag-title shot (ie getting pushed).

TiLo, I hear you, I just feel it's wrong to give Jeff Hardy and Sean Waltman multiple chances when they actually no-show, and then give Aries and Strong a hard time when they could've no-showed. Goes a long way to prove that as long as you have an established name, you can get away with more. Which is by my standards, wrong.

I really don't give a shit, as I would rather watch Strong and Aries go 30 minute matches on RoH shows than 5 minute filler matches on TNA, so anytime an RoH wrestler gets dumped by TNA is a small victory for me. It just isn't fair that those two should take the blame for everything those shitheads Hardy, Waltman and Apolo have done (I'm not blaming Kevin Nash, the guy had a heart attack)
AnubisPosted on 02/17/06 at 21:33:52

On 02/17/06 at 16:36:24, Unright wrote:That's not really a metaphor, it's a description of the situation.

A metaphor would be: You have some money and a friend. Your friend takes your money and plays roulette with it. By the time you stop him, he happens to have broke even. Should you be upset at your friend for gambling your money? Even though none was lost?
That's not a good metaphor at all!  Roulette has like the third worst odds of all games in a casino (only slightly better odds than video poker and keno), and the chances of losing in that game far outweigh the chances of winning.

That is not the case here.  The chances of Aries and Strong missing the TNA show did not "far outweigh" their chances of making it.

Roulette is a game of luck, but making it to the TNA show was a matter of how hard they tried to get there.  Even with a nasty blizzard, they still could have found a way to get to the TNA show.  The only luck involved was the luck of not getting completely snowed in, and I seriously would not put those odds at the same odds of winning roulette.  They didn't make it because they were lucky, they made it because they had a plan and they followed through with it.

Oh, and I would not say ROH is to TNA as OVW is to WWE.  ROH and TNA are much closer in size than OVW and WWE.  I mean, OVW is smaller than ROH and WWE is bigger than TNA, so that comparison isn't that great either.

On 02/17/06 at 17:27:51, Snabbit888 wrote:I'm trying really hard, but I don't understand why people can't understand why TNA would be tentative about pushing/using Aries & Strong.  Sure, they made both shows, but they chose TNA SECOND.  So why are you (Anubis and rey619) getting worked up that TNA is now going to choose Aries & Strong SECOND when considering who to push/use?
That's not what this is about.  This is about TNA punishing Aries and Strong for not listening to a mere request.  Based on what I've read and heard, it sounds like TNA has suspended them, decided not to use them at all for a couple of months, or even completely bury them.  That ain't right.  If TNA wants that kind of authority, they need to be giving Aries and Strong written contracts.  Until then, they're considered to be working for multiple promotions and should be pushed according to their talent, not their priorities.  I mean, after all, if TNA uses them correctly long enough, Aries and Strong might "change priorities", but they're only on the lower midcard at the moment, so there's no reason for this nonsense.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/17/06 at 23:11:05

On 02/17/06 at 21:33:52, Anubis wrote:

That's not a good metaphor at all! Roulette has like the third worst odds of all games in a casino (only slightly better odds than video poker and keno), and the chances of losing in that game far outweigh the chances of winning.

I don't think his comment was dealing with the odds. I think it's more talking about the fact that your friend is gambling the money AT ALL, whether the odds be 2:1 or 200000000:1.  Your friend still gambled the money.
Tommy BrownellPosted on 02/17/06 at 23:55:16

The problem is the double standard applied here, as a few people mentioned, but it took the second page of arguments before it came up.

Aries and Strong being benched is only going to set an example to the opening match guys...

Jeff Hardy is still going to come back and flake out whenever he wants, Waltman is still going to sneak in the back door whenever his latest WWE negotiations go sour and Nash will still pop in, bash TNA in every interview he's in and flake out of PPVs due to hangnails.

If TNA had made an example of THESE guys first, then Aries and Strong might have reconsidered...that said, Aries and Strong *took a chance* that they might miss the show...which they didn't.

Waltman flaked out on the resolution to their "generations" tag team tournament a while back and got REWARDED by a win over former NWA World champion Raven.

Now, I'm not Strong or Aries marks, but this *is* BS, because they're basically being punished for not being former WWE wrestlers, not for deciding to work the show, and if you look at TNA's past "punishments", tell me that isn't true.

AllPowerfulGARTHPosted on 02/18/06 at 00:25:33

You disobey your instructions, you jeopardize your appearance on a show, you lose your push. No one complained when it happened to Test.

TNA saw an opportunity to make an example out of a couple of guys who don't have highly recognizable names (Sean Waltman) or sell bunches of merchandise (Jeff Hardy), and they took it. Was it fair? No. But it was a way of showing they mean business. And anyway, it's not like this is going to be the end of GenNext's careers. It's going to be a temporary setback. And hey -- if they remain loyal to the company despite this, that will look good when their imaginary probation period is over and they might get an even better push because of it. Hey, it happened with Triple H, way back when.

Why even make the Jeff Hardy comparison, by the way? Isn't he still suspended? Even if the merchandise bit weren't true, I imagine TNA would want to hold on to him so WWE can't have him back, as WWE is on a big "must bring back midcarders from the 80's and 90's" kick right now.
UnrightPosted on 02/18/06 at 01:10:38

That's generally the problem with up and coming companies. They have to kow-tow a bit to big name talent until they get into a position to lay the smackth down.

That being said, they did grow some balls by benching Jeff Hardy and now Aries & Strong. If TNA is going to be a top contender they can't be the least bit unsure if a wrestler is going to show up.  TNA is sending a strong message, TNA is going to the top, either you're along for the ride or you're not.

Of course there is Waltman, Nash & a few other former WWE stars who have had minimal punishment for past infractions. Their starpower aside, it's worth noting that they've known Jeff Jarrett for several years. That just may have something to do with it.

Or we can just consider crazy theories:

On 02/17/06 at 23:55:16, Tommy Brownell wrote:Now, I'm not Strong or Aries marks, but this *is* BS, because they're basically being punished for not being former WWE wrestlers, not for deciding to work the show, and if you look at TNA's past "punishments", tell me that isn't true.
What? TNA's roster is full of wrestlers who aren't former WWE wrestlers who aren't being "punished".  A lot of TNA's main event scene (Styles, AMW, Samoa Joe, etc...) have never set foot in WWE.

AnubisPosted on 02/18/06 at 01:13:14

I would say LET WWE have Jeff Hardy back.  He's a pile of crapola riding Matt's coattails at the moment.

Again, TNA didn't "instruct", they "requested", and there's a world of difference.  I also think the odds are a very very very important factor.  The odds were in favor of Aries and Strong making it to both shows; I feel that TNA overreacted big time, not only with the punishments, but also with the pulling talent from the ROH show to begin with.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/18/06 at 01:46:19

Anubis, note that you can't possibly know for sure if TNA actually "instructed" or "requested."  You simply read a report on a wrestling news site.  "Requested" may just be the word the guy who wrote the report chose to use.  The only people who know are TNA management, Aries, and Strong, so there's a possibly they did tell them, "Don't go or you'll be punished."  We can debate on whether they deserve the punishment or not, but we can't actually say what EXACTLY was said.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/18/06 at 01:57:31

the point that keeps getting over looked is that they are the TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS in ROH.  Champions no showing is usually frowned upon no matter what company.  It would be like having a Wrestlemania only to find out that both John Cena and Kurt Angle won't be working the card and they won't be having any matches to fill their titles that they would retain.  When you are a champion, you act like a champion and honor your commitments, as the company that deemed you champion has faith in your abilities to further their product.  All this grandstanding from TNA will do is further alienate itself from ROH, as ROH continues to grow and tour without TV, while TNA lingers in the old WCW Worldwide Studios at Disney MGM in Orlando and has very few if any dates outside of the building.
AnubisPosted on 02/18/06 at 02:23:06

Leave it to Garrard to put things in a good enough perspective.

I have a theory. My theory is that people are growing more and more tired of the sports entertainment style due to the nonsense from WCW, WWE, and now TNA. Once this comes full circle, given the popularity of reality TV, pure wrestling will start to gain more and more momentum. When this happens a few years down the road, ROH will be in a damn good position to overtake WWE and TNA both until Vince steps down and Shane takes control of WWE.

It'll be like the early 80s all over again, with the company passing to the next generation. Sure, WWE might still come out on top in the end when Shane takes the company to the next level, but it'll be a helluva ride if this theory turns out to be true.  I predict that this could happen within the next decade easily.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/18/06 at 02:32:38

Just don't leave it to Beaver....Cleavage that is.  ;)
Snabbit888Posted on 02/18/06 at 03:34:40

The only contradiction to that point is that an ROH house show is not anywhere near the level of Wrestlemania.  That's an apples to oranges comparison.  
PulsarPosted on 02/18/06 at 04:04:32

In my opinion, noone was in the wrong here. I can see where TNA is coming from. It's alot easier to punish small-time players then your big name stars. Let's face it, at the time Jeff Hardy first flaked, it was a pretty big draw for TNA, as was Sean Waltman. AT THIS TIME AIres and Strong do NOT!!! End of story.
Tommy BrownellPosted on 02/18/06 at 04:08:32

On 02/18/06 at 01:10:38, Unright wrote:
What? TNA's roster is full of wrestlers who aren't former WWE wrestlers who aren't being "punished". A lot of TNA's main event scene (Styles, AMW, Samoa Joe, etc...) have never set foot in WWE.

Joe's never main evented a TNA PPV.  Not main event scene.

Also, Styles and AMW have never, to my knowledge, been in trouble with TNA management, no-showed a TNA show or disobeyed a TNA "request".

My point is that TNA has been lighter on guys who actually no-showed by choice than they're being on Strong and Aries, who DIDN'T no-show.

And is Hardy actually suspended?  I was under the impression that he had just decided that he didn't like wrestling (that is, didn't need the paycheck at the moment) again.
AnubisPosted on 02/18/06 at 04:17:13

Here's more proof against TNA. There is finally proof that Aries and Strong weren't even advertised, meaning their not showing up wouldn't have harmed the PPV in the least.

http://www.tnawrestling.com/againstallodds/

So TNA wasn't even being honest when it spoke of Aries and Strong as being "advertised".

Heck, it almost seems as if TNA didn't book the match until Aries and Strong showed up, and that the match was booked intentionally to punish them.
UnrightPosted on 02/18/06 at 05:47:27

At the center of all this is the unique relationship between TNA & ROH. TNA & ROH both get access to the same high caliber wrestlers as long as their show dates don't conflict. It's somewhat mutually beneficial as TNA is able to keep wrestlers on a cheaper/looser per appearance contract and ROH's roster becomes much more well-known to the wrestling public, meaning attendance goes up.

Of course TNA still has the upper hand because of TNA's policy that their wrestlers may work elsewhere as long as DVDs of their performance doesn't end up in national chains such as Best Buy. That policy effectively keeps ROH in place as more of a farming system as they can't really grow to a mass market without losing their shared talent.

Everything's fine and dandy until now.

ROH's show was on 2/11. TNA's PPV was on 2/12. On 2/11 New York (where ROH's show was held) experienced 26.9 inches of snow (68.3cm) which was the most snow since record-keeping first began (in 1869). The nor'easter was a catergory 3 (Major). Think of it as a hurricane of snow. Here's a great satellite shot of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GreatBlizzardof2006.jpg

Because they saw the storm coming and wanted their talent to be present for the PPV, TNA ordered/requested (what have you) all the wrestlers to Orlando.  

Now Aries & Strong saw the storm coming, heard the call-back, but choose to stay in NY to fulfill their obligations knowing that it was very possible they would miss the TNA PPV altogether due to being snowed in.

Here's where it gets murky. This is the age of cell phones and I'm guessing that TNA management were in contact with Aries & Strong. I'm also going to guess that Aries & Strong's attitude was more of "Look TNA, we'll make your show if we can, but we're going to this ROH show."

Now TNA's show is a PPV with a small arena crowd (1000) but has buyrates of around 30,000 (Turning Point had 35,000). Now Anubis has stated that Aries & Strong weren't advertised and I believe him. They may not have been advertised, but they were booked. Now the lack of advertisement on this implies that TNA had the ability to replace Aries & Strong with whoever they wanted. But A&S had been on the last few Impacts and even scored a tag victory over the Naturals two weeks ago. Advertisements or not, TNA had a storyline going with these guys.

Of course, A&S (I'm tired of typing it all out) are the ROH tag team champs and as such have an additional responsibility to ROH. Even though they didn't actually defend the titles on the ROH show, they enjoyed much higher profile matches as well as a crowd that appreciates them more. Aries lost a Pure Title match and Strong became #1 contender.

Now in the end A&S got to Orlando in time and worked the PPV. Still, TNA decides to bench them; that is, they plan on reducing their push and not having any TV storyline time devoted to them. This, of course, is suspect since TNA's history of punishment is inconsistent and shows signs of bias towards ex-WWE wrestlers who have a much higher profile.

Of course, the reasoning behind this is also murky since all anyone can come up with is theories.

So, what I do personally conclude from all this? Well, A&S had a preference of one fed over another and the other fed found out about it. It's wrestling soap opera taken to a higher level. Even though TNA got sloppy seconds the next night, they don't feel like they want to continue the relationship.

Ok, that metaphor is a little creepy. I'll drop it now.

A&S made it clear that they would rather be at the top of an indy fed. And TNA is under no obligation to push wrestlers that won't commit to their product. Technically this worked it good for everyone.
rey619Posted on 02/18/06 at 10:28:17

On 02/18/06 at 05:47:27, Unright wrote: Even though TNA got sloppy seconds the next night, they don't feel like they want to continue the relationship.

Ok, that metaphor is a little creepy. I'll drop it now.
I'll never doubt your metaphor ability again Unright, that just rocked!!

Anyway, if I were Gabe Sapolsky, I would probably try and avoid having shows on TNA PPV weekends.. at least in winter.
AnubisPosted on 02/18/06 at 11:33:39

Hmmm . . . I wonder how TNA would feel if a hurricane is coming down on Florida before an Impact taping with a ROH show the next night and ROH asks their guys to come back early so they don't risk getting caught in it.

TNA would probably say "no way" and demonstrate their inane hypocracy.
rey619Posted on 02/18/06 at 11:54:51

They probably would, but it wouldn't be an issue, as Impact tapings are on Mondays, and I don't think RoH holds shows on Tuesdays.
ZedjaPosted on 02/18/06 at 16:07:05

What Sean Waltman was rewarded for was showing up every week even though he wasn't going to be used. He got sidelined because he no-showed a PPV, but then he had been with TNA for a while.

Aries and Strong hasn't been in TNA all that long.

Jeff Hardy is still one of the most over guys in TNA from what I've read in reports.
TiLoBrownPosted on 02/18/06 at 16:56:03

On 02/18/06 at 04:04:32, Pulsar wrote:In my opinion, noone was in the wrong here. I can see where TNA is coming from.
That's what I've been saying! Really, all parties did what they had to do its that simple.

One thing I'm still worked about is Anubis this the request was just that, a request. A request from management is always more than that, its an unwritten law. When you get a request from a higher up, it has to be done. It's an unofficial order, anybody that has ever worked should know this. It doesn't matter what your job is, it's just the boss' way of being "your friend". Hell I do it all the time with the little bit of power I have left at my job.

The other thing is "the odds".  NY had record snowfall, the storm was being followed days before it even hit the tri-state area. Airports ended up being closed. They got to leave in time, sure, but the odds were greater that they weren't going to make it. Like one of the posters said, hotels in Florida were packed with diverted planes.
Perverted_IconPosted on 02/19/06 at 05:32:06

Wow.  What a thread.
A lot of good points here.  There is no reason to criticize the wrestlers.  They had a booking, and they kept it.
They can't be surprised now that there is some retribution, however.  By not leaving a day early, they were, effectively, blowing off the TNA PPV, as there was a huge snowstorm coming into New York.  This wasn't a some shocking squall.  It wasn't out of the blue.  Everyone knew this was coming.  If you've ever been in the Northeast US, you'd know that half an inch of snow sends people into hysterics and closes airports.  They were talking about over a foot.  (and got over two feet)
TNA started punishing workers who didn't show committment to them with Jeff Hardy, who hasn't been back since his no-show.  They are continuing this with Aries and Strong.  Don't kid yourself, they knew it was coming.  Strong obviously is OK with it, as he just jobbed on TV to Jay Lethal in a three-way match.  
ZedjaPosted on 02/19/06 at 07:02:08

Actually they started with Sean Waltman ;)
rey619Posted on 02/19/06 at 10:14:35

Jeff Hardy and Sean Waltman both got multiple chances before they decide to cut ties with them. Waltman was even awarded with a win over the former NWA World Champion.

I understand that Strong and Aries deserve a warning, and maybe they deserve to job a little, but you just simply cannot compare this to Hardy and Waltman's no-shows... Aries and Strong DID NOT no-show..

Well, it remains to be seen whether or not they are suspended or just merely de-pushed..
ZedjaPosted on 02/19/06 at 14:03:07

On 02/19/06 at 10:14:35, rey619 wrote:Waltman was even awarded with a win over the former NWA World Champion.
As I said, he got that win because he showed up every week despite knowing he wouldn't be used. The other reason was that they needed someone to beat Raven so that he could leave and take care of himself. They needed someone from Raven's past to do so that hadn't fought him in that storyline already.

So don't see it as a reward for no-showing but a reward for showing loyalty to TNA.

It could also be that Raven was supposed to fight someone else, but that wrestler couldn't make it for some reason. And Waltman was there.

Another thing I've stated before, both Waltman and Jeff Hardy had been with TNA for quite some time before no-showing, while Aries and Strong have not when they desided to gamble with the booking.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/19/06 at 18:40:13

I think one thing we're forgetting is that when we're mad about Aries/Strong being "de-pushed," that implies that they were well on their way to getting a big push, which truthfully, I didn't see happening anyway.
rey619Posted on 02/19/06 at 20:03:27

Well, that's a totally different issue, if you ask me. But one thing is for sure, they need to elevate someone in the X-division ranks, Joe/Daniels/Styles gets tedious after a while..
Tommy BrownellPosted on 02/19/06 at 20:13:38

That said, I'm intrigued at how Joe's going to climb the cables in the Ultimate X...=P

Maybe...kill Daniels and AJ dead, then get a ladder? =)
AnubisPosted on 02/19/06 at 22:54:19

I think that match is their way of having Joe lose the belt without losing, thus getting it off him while keeping him undefeated.  If Jarrett gets the belt back between Destination X and Lockdown, Sting will be the next champion, and we could well have my TNA dream feud between Sting and Joe.
rey619Posted on 02/19/06 at 23:36:35

Anubis, you got to let us know what you think about RoH when you get a chance to watch it.. maybe you've finally found a promotion to your liking  :)

As you probably know, Strong and Aries are two of the biggest stars there.. Aries having held the World Title, and Strong the current tag-champ (with Aries).. Strong had some great world title matches with Danielson recently.
AnubisPosted on 02/20/06 at 00:42:52

Absolutely.  It sounds freaking awesome.  Honestly, it kinda sounds like an American version of the Japanese wrestling I've always enjoyed when I've gotten to watch it.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/22/06 at 23:02:06

From Austin Aries' official site...

"On the afternoon before the A.A.O. PPV I was contacted by TNA management and told that because of concerns over the imminent winter storm they wanted all their talent in the NE to come down to Florida that night. I was asked to catch a flight from N.Y. to Orlando at 7:30pm. This put me in a very difficult position because I was on my way to the ROH show in Long Island I was booked to wrestle on that evening. Faced with having to make the choice between canceling last minute on ROH, or going against TNA's wishes, I quickly realized I was between a rock and a hard place. Given all the information presented to me at the time and taking my own personal and financial situations within both companies into account, I made an extremely difficult, and somewhat risky, decision that I was going to honor my commitment to ROH that night, and hopefully fly out in the morning from Philadelphia to Orlando and honor my commitment to TNA as well. Luckily I was able to make it down to Orlando on the one flight that wasn't cancelled. By the time I reached Universal Studios, however, I was 4 hours late. Thankfully, I was in time to still competed on the PPV that night and live up to my commitments to both companies and their fans.

On Tuesday shortly before my Impact! match against Christopher Daniels, I was informed by TNA management that they would be suspending me for 2 months for my tardiness and not following their request which would have prevented me from being late. Now there's a lot of debate over TNA's decision and if it's fair or not. I personally understand TNA's position on this matter and completely respect the fact that they're entitled to protect their interests as they see fit. And while I was also entitled and within my contractual rights to make the tough decision I did, I fully accept the consequences of my decision.

Hopefully this will clear up any misinformation, and/ or speculation about this story. My hope is that once my suspension is served this whole situation will be put behind us with no ill will. I look forward to my return to TNA as it gears up for it's huge primetime debut April 13 on Spike TV. In the meantime I will continue to stay busy with my numerous other bookings and prepare myself for my TNA return. Thank you to all my friends and fans who have supported me and the decisions I have made. It has meant a lot knowing that the people I so passionately perform for respect and appreciate the sacrifices I make to do what I love to do."
AnubisPosted on 02/22/06 at 23:05:45

TNA should try to get a whole roster of guys like that.  He's definitely the future of wrestling.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/22/06 at 23:07:31

I think both sides have handled this as best they could.  One thing that was being lost before is that Aries was late, and not by a little bit.  He was 4 hours late and by the sounds of it was fortunate to make it back in time to work the PPV.  Aries has accepted responsible, and TNA set their stance that you can't be late.  I think both sides did well here.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/23/06 at 01:09:48

so is Jeff Jarrett suspended if he's 4 hours late since he's the owner?
UnrightPosted on 02/23/06 at 01:44:42

Damn, it's refreshing to hear from a level-headed wrestler.

Most of the time wrestler's personal website postings are actually personal rants that stir up a lot of unprofessional drama, which turn get turned into craptastic 'worked shoots'.

Aries will be a lockerroom leader in no time with an attitude like that. Classy guy.
Rick GarrardPosted on 02/23/06 at 03:24:20

and he'll have a big-money WWE contract before any of the gang at TNA too with that attitude.  He's doing what's RIGHT for the business and not going into business for himself.  Such a refreshing attitude from the youth of this great sport.
rey619Posted on 02/23/06 at 08:18:23

Didn't know about the 4-hour late part, changes the situation somewhat. Still, it's good to know he accepts his punishment, and hopefully, TNA allows him to start with clean sheets when his suspension is over.
AnubisPosted on 02/23/06 at 10:25:48

Let's hope he never goes to WWE.  With his size, he'd be stuck in the dead-end cruiserweight division.
AllPowerfulGARTHPosted on 02/23/06 at 17:03:46

The cruiserweight division doesn't exactly have the prominence of TNA's X-division, but that's no reason to consider it dead-end. Maybe back over the summer when Nunzio had the belt, but with Juventud, Kid Kash and Gregory Helms as the last three Cruiserweight Champions, it does seem like WWE is paying attention to the division again.
rey619Posted on 02/23/06 at 18:57:17

But why must every title defense happen in a Battle Royal? Why can't they have storylines for the CW title like they had when Rey, Chavo, Tajiri and Noble fought for it...
AnubisPosted on 02/23/06 at 21:38:24

That and Aries is above cruiserweight titles.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/23/06 at 21:52:27

From what I've seen of Aries, he's nothing more than a cruiserweight at this point.  I think he's good, don't get me wrong.  I think he's damned good.  I just don't buy him being more than a cruiser at this stage.  Think the early career of Chris Benoit.  Early to mid 90's, I didn't buy him as more than a cruiser either.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/23/06 at 21:53:19

On 02/23/06 at 01:09:48, Rick Garrard wrote:so is Jeff Jarrett suspended if he's 4 hours late since he's the owner?
But is Jarrett going to be 4 hours late because he ignored his own request?
AnubisPosted on 02/24/06 at 01:34:33

I have a better question . . . How can you be four hours late and still participate in the opening match?

Methinks Aries is just being diplomatic, which I suppose is a smart enough move if he wants to keep all his options open.

If Aries can wrestle a good match up to 75 minutes, and if he can get a believable win over Samoa Joe, I highly doubt he can be considered "just a cruiserweight" . . . It takes a lot of talent to put on that kind of match, and no mere cruiserweight could pull it off.
UnrightPosted on 02/24/06 at 03:31:02

On 02/24/06 at 01:34:33, Anubis wrote:I have a better question . . . How can you be four hours late and still participate in the opening match?
While I'm not a professional wrestler myself, I don't think a wrestler's workday starts at bell time.

I'm sure there is a lot of last minute shit a wrestler needs to take care. Such as going over the match plan with the trainer and their opponents. Talk with the bookers to see what's expected of them in-ring and storyline-wise. They have to warm up for the match itself, etc.. etc..

A wrestling show (especially a televised one) is a combination of theater and atheletics.
Snabbit888Posted on 02/24/06 at 03:40:27

Exactly.  Being an actor, I know that it takes awhile to get warmed up before a show.  You can't show up at 7:25 and be ready for a 7:30 go.  You may get get on stage at the right time, but mentally, physically, etc. you won't be ready.  Plus you won't be aware of any last minute changes to stuff such as props, costumes, etc.

The same goes for wrestling.  You don't just show up and go.  There's lots of shit to work out before the night even begins.  Last time I heard, I believe the call time for WWE wrestlers for like a live RAW was around 1 PM.  So sure, you can show up at 5 and still make it out on TV, but it shows you're not reliable if everyone else can make it on time but you can't.
AnubisPosted on 02/24/06 at 04:00:37

Still, I didn't notice in drop in Aries's quality that night (I did watch the PPV) . . . How much prep is needed to job in an opener?  I mean, for main event and upper midcard I can understand, but not when you're the night's jobber.

Basically, I think the card position should dictate how much extra time is needed.

I just still feel that it's a bit drastic.  For the first offense of being late, if I were the employer, I would have probably just given him a warning.  Second offense would make it a two-week suspension, followed by one month and three months.  Fifth offense and you're gone.  Of course circumstances are also a big deal to me.  Okay he was late because he didn't follow TNA's request, yeah, I'd give him a warning for that.  Since it was because of a prior committment, though, I'd still just sit him down and say "Okay, hey, next time this situation arises, just follow the request or we can work something out."

Well, given a two month suspension, he better not get de-pushed on top of it, that's all I gotta say.
rey619Posted on 02/24/06 at 08:03:58

Austin Aries is one of the better wrestlers in America today, as anyone who have seen his RoH work can witness. Of course his small frame screams of Cruiserweight/X division if you think WWE and TNA, but in RoH, he has been a dominant world champion, and can be again.
AllPowerfulGARTHPosted on 02/24/06 at 13:59:35

Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit and Rey Mysterio all spent part of their careers as cruiserweights, and yet today, two are former WWE champions and two have won the Royal Rumble. Starting out as a cruiser doesn't exactly leave you with the kiss of death.
PulsarPosted on 02/26/06 at 06:43:26

Don't forget Jericho
pszPosted on 02/26/06 at 19:33:03

Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Christian, and Brian Pillman were all former Light/Junior/Mid Heavyweights and/or Cruiserweights.