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If Joe wants a raise, give him a fucking raise!

AnubisPosted on 12/21/05 at 21:39:56

I just read on how Samoa Joe's contract allowed for his commanding a raise if his initial run took off.  Given that he's more over than half the WWE people TNA has snatched up (i.e. Jeff Hardy, Sean Waltman, and Christian Cage), I would say he's more than earned that raise.

This guy is the next Goldberg, he's being booked the way Goldberg should have been booked, and he's better at it than Goldberg!  Give the man a fucking raise already!  Not enough money?  Trim some fat, there are several people in TNA I wouldn't miss, Jeff Hardy being at the top of said list, followed by Sean Waltman and Kip James.  Do anything to give that man the money he wants (although depending on how high he wants it, I'd say they should try to get him to sign on for a longer term in the process).
Snabbit888Posted on 12/21/05 at 22:07:12

Samoa Joe's in a great position right now.  He's holding all the chips.  He's definitely high on WWE's radar too, so if TNA won't pay him, WWE can, and will.
AnubisPosted on 12/21/05 at 22:18:49

Let's hope that doesn't happen, because WWE would just bury Samoa Joe (he doesn't fit their "mold").
Snabbit888Posted on 12/21/05 at 22:34:43

I think with Samoa Joe though, he's intense enough and has that natural in-ring charisma you can't really teach.  I think he'll be a lot like Steve Austin and get over regardless.  I don't see him reaching Austin's popularity, but Austin got over despite a crappy Ringmaster gimmick, and Samoa Joe has the same kind of talent to do so.
91Posted on 12/21/05 at 22:46:16

They'll be getting rid of Jeff Hardy anyway I would have thought, so yeah, if I were heading up TNA, I'd use some of Hardys salary to appease Joe.

As for the WWE, if he's THAT good, he'll get over on sheer ability alone - Chris Benoit wasn't blessed with charisma or wonderful interview skills or a great build, but got a decent world title reign of his talent. Whether or not Joe would get that sort of push is debatable (when the WWE hired Benoit, practically everyone knew who he was and he got a push out of the blocks, the same can't be said for Samoa Joe just now who'd have to earn recognition all over again with the large majority) but I'm sure he could make something of himself.
Captain TagonPosted on 12/22/05 at 07:17:54

Christian Cage isn't over? Do you even watch TNA?
UnrightPosted on 12/22/05 at 17:11:50

On 12/22/05 at 07:17:54, Captain Tagon wrote:Christian Cage isn't over? Do you even watch TNA?
I believe Anubis simply said that Samoa Joe was more over than Christian Cage.

Of course, measure of oveness remains highly subjective. Your individual mileage may vary.
Captain TagonPosted on 12/22/05 at 17:56:48

I don't deny Joe is mega over. But some of the biggest pops that crowd ever makes are for Christian Cage. I just feel like both of them are mega over, and in my mind the big money match down the road will be Cage vs Joe.
colmatteusPosted on 12/22/05 at 21:19:31

TNA needs to keep Joe.  Period.  I'd say have them rget rid of Kip James before anyone else... but unfortunately he's in the money feud right now with Konnan, and even though I hate him, the program's gonna sell just b/c they've built it for so long.  But whatever they can do to keep Joe... they have to do it.  WWE will jump on him, and while I disagree that they wouldn't use him properly (he's good enough to get himself over despite the WWE's worst efforts, i.e., Steve Austin), I'd rather see some parity in the wrestling world.  Having Joe find his niche and succeed in TNA would be a big-time boon for them and maybe start up a real wrestling war once again.
Ghost Mask IIIPosted on 12/24/05 at 22:59:11

I do have to say that I love Samoa Joe.

I would hate to see him go to WWE.
meetzorakPosted on 12/24/05 at 23:22:19

On 12/21/05 at 22:18:49, Anubis wrote:Let's hope that doesn't happen, because WWE would just bury Samoa Joe (he doesn't fit their "mold").
you really wouldn't expect them to keep the samoa jor gimmick, would you?
pszPosted on 12/24/05 at 23:31:20

It depends, really... Dudley's (more or less) kept their gimmicks. So did Benoit and Guerrero and Malenko. Also let most(!) the ECW/WCW guys keep the same gimmicks after the buyouts.

On the other hand, WWE is the same group that made Terry Gordy into "The Executioner", made Too Cold Scorpio into Flash Funk and replaced Cactus Jack with Mankind :-P

If WWE sees the Samoa Joe gimmick is a potential money-maker, they would most likely keep it.

Of course, TNA may end up keeping Joe, and this would all be a moot point ;->
Captain TagonPosted on 12/25/05 at 00:43:26

On 12/24/05 at 23:22:19, meetzorak wrote:

you really wouldn't expect them to keep the samoa jor gimmick, would you?
Why not? Better yet, that is the gimmick? He doesn't do anything particularly gimmicky.
rey619Posted on 12/25/05 at 13:56:04

While Joe's popularity with the fans can possibly rival that of Cage's, you must remember that the 700 or so free entrants that are there for the taping doesn't bring in more money than what they buy of snacks and beer.

I highly doubt that Samoa Joe sells more merchandise or bring in more people to the TV than Cage and Hardy. That being said, I would have paid Joe whatever he demanded, because he's gonna get bigger and bigger every month.

I think Sean Waltman's already fired, and Jeff Hardy isn't trailing far behind after his latest no-show. The problem is that they bring in a lot of merchandise money from him. I can't imagine Kip James being fired. He is stuck in one of the longest running feuds (which by no means is overdone), and the market value of a potential return of the New Age Outlawz is too big to be ignored.

Give all of Jeff Hardy's money to Samoa Joe.
UnrightPosted on 12/25/05 at 21:47:01

On 12/24/05 at 23:31:20, psz wrote:On the other hand, WWE is the same group that made Terry Gordy into "The Executioner", made Too Cold Scorpio into Flash Funk and replaced Cactus Jack with Mankind :-P
Mankind wasn't a bad gimmick for Mick Foley, and from I hear, Foley pretty much suggested it.

I'd replace that last example with  "...and replaced Terry Funk with Chainsaw Charlie."
Ghost Mask IIIPosted on 12/25/05 at 22:58:29

Chainsaw was a fun character to watch.
91Posted on 12/26/05 at 15:18:52

Chainsaw was also entirely Terry Funks idea, so the WWE can't really be held to blame there. And there was nothing wrong with Mankind either.
pszPosted on 12/26/05 at 17:07:15

I wasn't saying there was anything WRONG with the gimmicks (Ok, I still hate Flash Funk), just the fact that they had NEW gimmicks for already WELL KNOWN wrestlers.
91Posted on 12/26/05 at 18:30:51

As long as you're not saying that like it's necessarily a bad thing.
Snabbit888Posted on 12/26/05 at 20:54:45

For every instance of a well-known wrestler being given a shitty gimmick, there are instances of a wrestler being given a better gimmick.

Kevin Nash becoming Diesel.

"Stunning" Steve to Stone Cold.

Dustin Rhodes to Goldust.

Johnny B. Badd to Marc Mero.

Terra Ryzen to Hunter Hearst Helmsley.
91Posted on 12/26/05 at 21:08:16

And don't forget Mean Mark Callous. Mind you, none of those people Snabby listed (bar Austin, and possibly the inoffensive enough Rhodes I guess) had particularly good gimmicks or characters. Samoa Joe wouldn't especially need changing. Still, if they found a niche...

Of course, we are all talking hypotheticals here. He'll probably sign a renewal anyway.
Snabbit888Posted on 12/26/05 at 21:14:10

And hell, even as bad as a gimmick based on Little Richard is, he was over.

*shudders*
JoeDesertratPosted on 01/02/06 at 07:32:17

I can't see Samoa Joe as being anything but wasted in the WWE. He's big for TNA but he's just another somewhat large wrestler in the WWE. What are they going to have him do, overpower Kane or the Big Show or Batista? He also lacks that crowd pleasing charisma or a gimmick that would really put him over with WWE fans and I shudder to think of what WWE writers would do to him. A feud with Viscera?

This guy is the next Goldberg, he's being booked the way Goldberg should have been booked, and he's better at it than Goldberg!
Give me a break! Goldberg became the biggest thing in pro wrestling other than Steve Austin and if he showed up in the WWE or TNA tomorrow he would get a bigger pop than anyone on either roster after the first few drum beats of his entrance music. Even if you can claim Samoa Joe is more talented he doesn't seem to have anything like the ability Goldberg had to project that aura of invincibility. Goldberg always looked bigger than the wrestlers he faced, even if he wasn't. Samoa Joe simply doesn't have that aura.

Speaking of entrances, that seems to be an area where TNA is really lacking. Their wrestlers have all the entrance flair of a local wrestling school promotion. At least the tv production values seem no better. Most enter the ring like they're entering their favorite local bar.

The Sandman, especially in his later years, was a huge pop for the crowd based almost entirely on his 5 minute entrance to the ring. It's "sports entertainment", not wrestling and unless TNA gets this they won't ever get any further than they are now. Kip James bashing seems popular here but the New Age Outlaws had a great entrance and were hugely popular (I think) because of it. Austin, The Undertaker, Hogan, The Rock, they all had great entrances. I see a lot of wrestlers in TNA with the talent that a huge entrance could elevate to mega star status. The crowd should be on its feet  and the noise in the arena should be deafening before the match starts. It's extremely rare to see a crowd heat up that hasn't been fueled ahead of time.

Don't get me wrong. I desperately want TNA to succeed. I just think they need to challenge the WWE and other entertainment options on terms they can win.
Captain TagonPosted on 01/02/06 at 20:38:28

Dude, Chris Daniels has the best entrance in wrestling today.

And Samoa Joe would still be pretty big in WWE. Play him up as a Vader type monster. And he just oozes charisma.
AnubisPosted on 01/03/06 at 06:22:14

On 01/02/06 at 07:32:17, JoeDesertrat wrote:Give me a break! Goldberg became the biggest thing in pro wrestling other than Steve Austin and if he showed up in the WWE or TNA tomorrow he would get a bigger pop than anyone on either roster after the first few drum beats of his entrance music. Even if you can claim Samoa Joe is more talented he doesn't seem to have anything like the ability Goldberg had to project that aura of invincibility. Goldberg always looked bigger than the wrestlers he faced, even if he wasn't. Samoa Joe simply doesn't have that aura.
You're talking to the biggest Goldberg fan on the face of the planet here (ask anyone around here, they know how I feel).  I didn't say Samoa Joe was there, I said he'd "be the next Goldberg".  If he's pushed right (and given a better entrance, which I agree with you on), he'd get there in a year or two.

I don't think TNA should go the "sports entertainment" route.  It's only a matter of time before people grow tired of that style, and then we'll likely see a turn toward what's in Japan, a huge push for pure and action-based wrestling.  When that happens, if TNA stays as they are now, they'd be one step ahead when that time comes.  Sports entertainment will start slipping into history unless by a miracle the next Rock comes around (and there is NO ONE in WWE right now with that much potential unless someone teaches RVD how to work the mic, which probably won't be happening).
Rick GarrardPosted on 01/03/06 at 07:11:23

RVD has only made a limited number (less than 5) WWE appearances since injuring his knee almost a year ago... and one of those was at the ECW One Night Stand PPV.  At this point, him actually appearing on a show would be a bigger shock than him speaking.
JoeDesertratPosted on 01/05/06 at 04:23:40

and there is NO ONE in WWE right now with that much potential
I absolutely agree with you there. Even if there was the writers would ruin them with some stupid gimmick.

I don't think TNA should go the "sports entertainment" route.  It's only a matter of time before people grow tired of that style, and then we'll likely see a turn toward what's in Japan, a huge push for pure and action-based wrestling.  When that happens, if TNA stays as they are now, they'd be one step ahead when that time comes.
This would be great. I wish someone would come out with a wrestling cable channel and showcase wrestling promotions from around the world. I'd dearly love to be able to watch Japanese wrestling. TNA doesn't need to go completely "sports entertainment" but they should look at what is good about it from a fans perspective and absolutely "borrow" it. There's no reason they can't put on the type of wrestling matches they do now and not come up with a better overall production than they do. Part of it could be where their shows are held. The atmosphere of the arena seems pretty sterile and the lighting isn't done very well. They need to find a wrestling arena, not an unused basketball arena or concert hall or whatever it is they're shooting in.
AnubisPosted on 01/06/06 at 22:00:19

Absolutely.  If they can incorporate sports entertainment into a pure wrestling style of booking, they'd get the best of all worlds.  ECW was doing exactly that, and WCW came close several times.  WCW even beat WWF for a long time and ECW could have as well if Heyman was better on the financial end.

Paul Heyman is the GOD of wrestling booking.

I'm currently playing a promoter sim called Total Extreme Warfare to simulate my ability to handle business.  I'm not sure if that's allowed on the TNM forums, though.  They're not direct competition, but they're in the similar styles.  Right now I'm heading up Ring of Honor and trying to play from a realistic standpoint.  Made myself (the real me) as a character and I'm "pretending that I'm training on the job" at the same time as a booker and wrestler (it does happen, usually with better results than Stephanie's booking, although so far I've mainly been a jobber to the big guns while I get my skills up through matches against highly talented people).  If this discussion is allowed, I'd be more than happy to talk about how I'm doing on it.  It's a neat promoter sim where you run the business and booking perspectives (not direct competition with TNM because TNM is a match sim, but YMMV).
rey619Posted on 01/06/06 at 22:46:41

I think many people around here have tried TEW, but not many of us do enjoy it as much as we do TNM. I tend to get bored very quickly by it, mainly because of the lack of a simmed match, and the lack of random aspect. Part of why I love TNM is because I don't know who's winning myself (except for the few matches I book).

But it's a brilliant game for those more into the business and financial aspects of wrestling.
Snabbit888Posted on 01/06/06 at 23:12:49

That, and there are so many variables into the actual finances of wrestling that it's nearly impossible for a sim to accurately depict all of them.  That's why Oliver pulled the plug on TNM Gold.  It just wouldn't be realistic.  Though I've heard TEW can be enjoyable, it's not exactly an accurate look into the business world of wrestling.  I've made about $400 million on Baseball Mogul, but I don't think I'll be running the Yankees any time soon. :)
UnrightPosted on 01/07/06 at 01:14:15

I grew bored of TEW because of all the micro-management.

But it is a very good program (TEW 2005 > EWR > TEW 2004 > WreSpi). The Cornellverse would be interesting to transpose into TNM world.

Plus the guys who make the real world data sets are fanatics and very good at what they do. It's interesting to sit back and see how the real world evolves. Although the WWE & TNA computer bookers are so out of touch it's funny.
AnubisPosted on 01/07/06 at 01:50:21

Honestly, I think the people who draw up the stats for the real wrestlers are often hit-or-miss.

They severely underestimate Samoa Joe (stats mostly in the 60s and 70s) and severely overestimate a lot of WWE people like Trish Stratus (they gave her more Psychology than half the ROH starting roster).  I seriously wonder why so many peopel think Trish is a good wrestler.  She's not even the best in WWE!  Victoria and Lita are both vastly superior, and that's just in WWE; worldwide, Trish is absolutely nothing, she sucks!  Yet people rant about women like her and Sable when they actually have very little wrestling talent to speak of.

That and their overness statistics are inane in some places. (They list way too many people as being more over than RVD, Randy Orton, and AJ Styles, including Scott Steiner, D-Von Dudley, Jeff Jarrett, JBL, Big Show, John Cena, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Booker T, Bubba Ray Dudley, Christian Cage, DDP, and Kane, when I doubt any of them are more over than those three.) The day Kane, Big Show, and Scott Steiner are more over than RVD, Randy Orton, and AJ Styles, I'll eat my underwear!

I like it for the micro-management stuff. TNM is good for running action cards are simming e-fed results if your players can tolerate it (unfortunately most don't like it), and good for doing random matches, but for doing what I've claimed here in the past (running a promotion where you can't control all the people implicitly), it's more accurate. I know it's not totally realistic, but it's the closest we'll ever get.

Right now I just had a heel Devon Storm win the ROH World Title from AJ Styles, turned Bryan Danielson heel and had him take the Pure Wrestling Title off Samoa Joe, and gave the recently formed Women's Title to Mariko Yoshida. I only have the Women's Title around, though, until I can get the women's stats up in range to compete with the men because I plan to basically have "skill only" as the driving point behind my booking. I'm using Mariko Yoshida to train the rest of the girls and I'm heavily pushing Sarah Stock, Mike Mizanin, Krissy Vaine, Shane Sewell, Afa Jr., and Tom Howard as the up-and-coming next generation of main eventers. Current main event included AJ Styles, Devon Storm, James Gibson, Bryan Danielson, Samoa Joe, Low-Ki, CM Punk, and Spanky. Colt Cabana and Ace Steel are the Tag Team Champions.

It's fun for the business aspects, methinks. I like having the actual role of the booker, and it's certainly more challenging to work with the real-life workers and turn them into my home-brew characters than to just make them from scratch as perfectly as I like. So far I've almost quintupled ROH's starting money and have their overness in the USA up to 53.6 (finally got above NJPW recently, although it took some work). I'm most popular in the South East US atm.
UnrightPosted on 01/07/06 at 03:50:43

Damn, sounds like you're doing pretty good.

Do you have any lockerroom problems?

AnubisPosted on 01/07/06 at 06:27:36

Yeah, a few. Jimmy Jacobs and Lacey don't like each other, nor do Krissy Vaine and Azrieal. Oh, and Alex Shelley is jealous of Samoa Joe and saying his push was a result of backstage politics. Austin Aries and referee Mike Kehner have been having problems as well.

The biggest problems came when Prince Nana accused Ace Steel of using politics to advance himself and get the Tag Team Titles. Eventually, all of my road agents were complaining about Prince Nana, so I jobbed him to myself, had him flip out in the storyline, had Bryan Danielson turn heel and take over the Embassy, and then fired him, hahaha!
rey619Posted on 01/07/06 at 09:26:20

Not to get started on the whole overness deal again Anubis, but in TEW, overness is, in fact, a measure of how well-known you are in the wrestling world.

So yeah, probably everyone in WWE have a higher overness than AJ Styles. Even Simon Dean and the Dicks.
91Posted on 01/07/06 at 16:56:55

Kane and the Big Show are pretty damned over, certainly on the same sort of level as RVD and Orton. Talent and overness are in no way, shape or form the same thing. Were A.J. to join the WWE, he'd be well below the lot of them, though it's arguable to say that in time he'd be surpassing them given the chance. And Cena was hugely popular until recently, easily beating the lot of them.

Never got into TEW and the like. Not enough freedom with the actual cards themselves.
AnubisPosted on 01/08/06 at 00:34:50

I know what overness is, it's a worker's popularity.  If it were their notoriety, then overness most likely would rarely go down, because you have to be out of the limelight to "lose notoriety".  That said, TEW puts Kane and Big Show a good 15 points above RVD and Randy Orton (we'll leave out AJ Styles for the rest of this just because we can't fairly compare them right yet); no way no how are Kane and Big Show more popular than Randy Orton, much less RVD.  Okay, you MIGHT be able to argue on Orton, but certainly not RVD.  RVD is still probably the fifth or sixth most over person in WWE, even injured.
91Posted on 01/08/06 at 01:00:05

15 points is excessive, but at the same time, Van Dam isn't miles and miles ahead. They're all at a similar level - granted when allowed to do his thing, Van Dam would be top of all the names mentioned (again, ignoring A.J. for the reasons you alluded to) but any one of them would be believable main eventers in the current scheme of things.

Bear in mind unpopularity counts as overness as well (provided it's, say, Triple H unpopularity as opposed to "X-Pac heat").
Captain TagonPosted on 01/08/06 at 04:05:10

On 01/08/06 at 00:34:50, Anubis wrote:t RVD.  RVD is still probably the fifth or sixth most over person in WWE, even injured.
Haha. Whatever.
AnubisPosted on 01/08/06 at 04:19:06

On 01/08/06 at 04:05:10, Captain Tagon wrote:Haha. Whatever.
Well let's see, he gets massive crowd reations even when he's not involved in an angle, and he can easily get some of the biggest reactions at any show he wrestles on.  I'd say that's conclusive enough.

Any which way, RVD is a lot more over than Big Show and Kane.
Captain TagonPosted on 01/08/06 at 05:09:51

I don't see it. Kane gets good reactions (who knows why) and so does Big Show. RVD hasn't been around enough in the same markets to even compare them.
rey619Posted on 01/08/06 at 09:04:29

On 01/08/06 at 00:34:50, Anubis wrote:I know what overness is, it's a worker's popularity. If it were their notoriety, then overness most likely would rarely go down, because you have to be out of the limelight to "lose notoriety".
Well, ok, it is popularity, but not WITHIN one single fed, more like popularity in the entire US. It is for that reason nobody in RoH crosses the 10% limit (except for Spanky and Gibson when they were there).

Of course, it's a lot easier to compare within the WWE.. either way, this will all be a matter of personal opinion.
Rick GarrardPosted on 01/08/06 at 16:59:11

The only crowd reactions RVD's been getting recently have been from angry comic book buyers when the latest shipment of Superman doesn't arrive on it's scheduled release day... and that would be X-Pac like heat that he's getting.

RVD's made less than 4 appearances on WWE shows (house shows and TV in the last 9 months) so it's really not a good comparison to use RVD since he's on the "inactive" list much like Jericho.
AnubisPosted on 01/09/06 at 01:00:07

I'm mostly going by the reactions he was getting before his injury.  It's not like he's gonna be less over when he returns, lol.  Heck, most faves that come back from injury are MORE over upon their return.
pszPosted on 01/09/06 at 14:31:05

... Then turn heel that night (HHH)...