FORUM HOME > TNM > Help
Figure 4 pin

Some GuyPosted on 08/31/04 at 20:07:35

Everytime someone shoulders hits the mat when they are in the figure 4 it always results in a pin. No on has ever gotten their shoulders back up even if it is only a minute into the match. Sometimes they can break the hold before thier sholders go down, but if they do it's always the end of the match. (this happens with every wrestler that has the move.)  Does this happen to anyone else.
JustinPosted on 08/31/04 at 20:14:35

It happens about 90% of the time to me too. I'm trying to figure a way to fix it myself.

Anyone have a helpful idea?
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/31/04 at 20:27:46

Yes. I've never seen an attempt at a pinfall inside a submission result in failure since upgrading to SE. Sometimes the submission is broken first, and sometimes they submit first, but I've never seen an actual attempt at a pinfall within the submission fail.

Last I heard, Oliver seemed pretty sure that this wasn't a bug, but it seems like it must be to me. Maybe I'll put together a test scenario tonight to give some evidence to the fact that it's not working right.

If you want a workaround, go to the moves database and disable the pin attempt in submission flag. This will make the move a straight submission hold.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/31/04 at 21:05:26

Excerpt from a match I just ran: (Benoit Lock is a figure four)

Chris Benoit nails Arn Anderson with a back suplex.
Chris Benoit gets a Benoit Lock on Arn Anderson.
Arn Anderson's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Chioda counts: One, two, thr... shoulder up.
Arn Anderson is writhing in pain.
Arn Anderson submits after 8 seconds.
The crowd erupts.
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/31/04 at 21:06:55

And from the rematch:

Chris Benoit puts Arn Anderson in a Benoit Lock.
Arn Anderson's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Chioda counts: One, two, thr... shoulder up.
Arn Anderson is valiantly trying to break the hold.
Arn Anderson's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Chioda counts: One, two, thr... shoulder up.
Arn Anderson tries to fight the pain.
Arn Anderson submits after 17 seconds.
Chris Benoit has the crowd going wild.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 08/31/04 at 21:50:37

Weird.  I'll run some tests on my own TNM tonight.

Thanks Oliver.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Some GuyPosted on 08/31/04 at 21:53:57

Out of 24 cards here are all the matches that ended with the figure four. I have time set to 7, so the match time is usally in the double digits.

World Title Tournament - Qualifying Round:
Ric Flair pinned Lance Storm with the Figure-Four Leglock in 0:00:46.
Rating: *

World Title Tournament - Qualifying Round:
Chris Benoit pinned Rene Dupree after a figure-four leglock in 0:04:55.
Rating: **

WWF Title Decisions:
[Round 1]
Triple H pinned Brock Lesnar after a figure-four leglock in 0:08:31.
Rating: **

Saturday Night's Main Event:
Chris Benoit pinned Shawn Michaels after a figure-four leglock in 0:04:10.
Rating: ***


King of The Ring:
Chris Benoit pinned Shawn Michaels after a figure-four leglock in 0:00:5
Rating: *

Summerslam:
Triple H pinned Nathan Jones after a figure-four leglock in 0:07:18.
Rating: DUD


Tuesday Night Titans:
Number-One-Contenders-Four Corners Match
Chris Benoit defeated Shawn Michaels, William Regal and Rene Dupree:
        x R. Dupree beat S. Michaels via the French Riviera in 0:37:40
        x Benoit beat W. Regal via a figure-four leglock in 0:41:25
        x Benoit beat R. Dupree via a figure-four leglock in 0:45:02
Rating: ** 1/2


Wrestlemania II:
No-DQ-Cage Match
Chris Benoit pinned Shawn Michaels after a figure-four leglock in 0:03:42.
Rating: ***

The Main Event II:
Chris Benoit pinned Nathan Jones after a figure-four leglock in 0:01:58.
Rating: * 1/4
(Chris Benoit won the World Heavyweight Title.)
Some GuyPosted on 08/31/04 at 21:54:55

I'm using SE build 2, what build are you using oliver?
Oliver CoppPosted on 08/31/04 at 22:18:15

SE Build 2 :)
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/01/04 at 02:10:56

Just ran a test using two guys whose movesets were 70% Figure Four (the rest were to assure that there was always something that could be done.)

Both had Push, Stamina, and Workrate of 100.

You might find this interesting.

They lock up.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB whips AA into the ropes.
AB misses with an elbow.
AB hits AA with a clothesline.
AB nails AA with a back suplex.
AB whips AA into the ropes, but AA reverses it.
AA hits AB with a backdrop.
AA whips AB into the turnbuckle.
AA runs into the ropes.
AA hits a clothesline on AB.
AA catches AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
Jack Doan counts: One, two, three.
A small "AA" chant is being started.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:00:57

They lock up.
AB whips AA into the ropes, but AA reverses it.
AA misses with a shoulderblock.
AB hits AA with a clothesline.
AB whips AA into the turnbuckle.
AB charges into the corner.
AB goes for a back suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA goes for a vertical suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB throws AA out of the ring.
Nick Patrick counts: one, two, three, four, five, AA reenters the ring.
AB whips AA into the ropes.
AB goes for a clothesline, but AA ducks out of the way.
AA executes a back suplex on AB.
AA whips AB into the ropes.
AB hits a clothesline on AA.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA blocks it.
AA hits a back suplex on AB.
AA whips AB into the ropes.
AB takes AA down with a clothesline.
AB puts AA in a figure-four leglock.
AA's shoulders are on the mat.
Nick Patrick counts: One, two, three.
The crowd is starting to get behind AB.

The winner is AB. Time of match: 0:01:51

They lock up.
AA goes for a vertical suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB whips AA into the ropes, but AA reverses it.
AB takes AA down with a clothesline.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA counters it with a small package.
James Beard counts: One, two, kickout.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB kicks AA.
A small "AB" chant is being started.
AA kicks AB.
AB kicks AA.
The crowd is starting to get behind AB.
AB goes for a vertical suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB hits AA with a back suplex.
AB goes for a back suplex, but AA counters it with a bulldog.
AA goes for a figure-four leglock, but AB counters it with a small package.
James Beard counts: One, two, kickout.
AB complains about a slow count.
AA uses an inside cradle on AB.
James Beard counts: One, kickout.
AA puts AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
James Beard counts: One, two, three.
A small "AA" chant is being started.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:01:41

They lock up.
AB runs into the ropes.
AB hits AA with a kick.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA blocks it.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB uses a vertical suplex on AA.
AB nails AA with a vertical suplex.
AB uses a vertical suplex on AA.
AB hits a back suplex on AA.
AB whips AA into the ropes, but AA reverses it.
AA hits AB with a clothesline.
AA goes for a figure-four leglock, but AB counters it with a small package.
Nick Patrick counts: One, kickout.
AB hits AA.
The crowd is cheering on AB.
AA hits AB.
The crowd is starting to get behind AA.
AA punches AB.
AA is getting a good reaction from the crowd.
AA throws AB out of the ring.
Nick Patrick counts: one, two, three, four, AB reenters the ring.
AA hits a back suplex on AB.
AA is getting a good reaction from the crowd.
AA locks AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB breaks the hold after 6 seconds.
AB uses a vertical suplex on AA.
The crowd is really behind AB.
AB uses a back suplex on AA.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA blocks it.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB turns in mid-air and lands on him.
Nick Patrick counts: One, two, kickout.
AB uses a back suplex on AA.
AB covers AA.
Nick Patrick counts: One, two, shoulder up.
AB puts AA in a figure-four leglock.
AA's shoulders are on the mat.
Nick Patrick counts: One, two, three.
The chants for AB are deafening.

The winner is AB. Time of match: 0:02:48

They lock up.
AA nails AB with a back suplex.
AA hits AB with a vertical suplex.
AA executes a vertical suplex on AB.
A small "AA" chant is being started.
AA runs into the ropes.
AB executes a clothesline on AA.
AB puts AA in a figure-four leglock.
AA is valiantly trying to break the hold.
AA's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Chioda counts: One, two, three.
There are lots of chants for AB.

The winner is AB. Time of match: 0:00:43

They lock up.
AA goes for a vertical suplex, but AB reverses it.
AB takes AA down with a vertical suplex.
AB runs into the ropes.
AB goes for a clothesline, but AA ducks out of the way.
AA whips AB into the ropes, but AB reverses it.
AB uses a clothesline on AA.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA counters it with a small package.
Jack Doan counts: One, two, kickout.
AA uses a back suplex on AB.
AA locks AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
Jack Doan counts: One, two, three.
AB complains about a fast count.
The crowd is really behind AA.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:00:58

They lock up.
AB goes for a vertical suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA takes AB down with a back suplex.
AA punches AB.
AA kicks AB.
AA chops AB.
AB hits AA.
A small "AB" chant is being started.
AB whips AA into the ropes.
AB nails AA with a clothesline.
AB locks AA in a figure-four leglock.
AA breaks the hold after 6 seconds.
AA takes AB down with a back suplex.
AA locks AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
Tim White counts: One, two, three.
AA is getting a good reaction from the crowd.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:01:19

They lock up.
AB goes for a vertical suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA nails AB with a back suplex.
AA whips AB into the ropes.
AB hits AA with a clothesline.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA blocks it.
AA goes for a vertical suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB nails AA with a back suplex.
AB hits AA.
The crowd is starting to get behind AB.
AB punches AA.
AA punches AB.
AA hits AB.
The crowd is starting to get behind AA.
AB chops AA.
A small "AB" chant is being started.
AA chops AB.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB counters it with a bulldog.
AB goes for a figure-four leglock, but AA kicks him off.
AA goes for a back suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB whips AA into the ropes, but AA reverses it.
AA hits AB with a backdrop.
AA gets a figure-four leglock on AB.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Chioda counts: One, two, three.
A small "AA" chant is being started.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:01:43

They lock up.
AB goes for a back suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA whips AB into the ropes.
AB misses with a clothesline.
AA misses with a clothesline.
AA takes AB down with a clothesline.
AA hits AB with a back suplex.
AA is going for the cover.
Charles Robinson counts: One, two, three.
A small "AA" chant is being started.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:00:20

AA attacks AB before the bell.
AA uses a vertical suplex on AB.
AA goes for a vertical suplex, but AB blocks it.
AB goes for a vertical suplex, but AA blocks it.
AA runs into the ropes.
AA hits AB with a kick.
AA catches AB in a figure-four leglock.
AB's shoulders are on the mat.
Mike Sparks counts: One, two, three.
The crowd is really behind AA.

The winner is AA. Time of match: 0:00:34




9 out of 10 matches end with a figure four pin, and no attempt at it ever fails. Thus, no match runs more than 3 mintues. What's odd is that it seems to be working normally on your computer despite us running the same version of TNM (SE build 2a). I know I'm not the only one who has encountered the figure four bug.

Any idea as to why this might be happening?

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Rick GarrardPosted on 09/01/04 at 07:01:02

It's been so ridiculous in prior versions, that when I started CW, I made it a point to disable the figure four can pin flag.  

Last thing I need is Robert Gibson or Ric Flair never losing a single match.  ;)
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/01/04 at 08:42:49

It has to be some flag somewhere that's set differently on your end than on mine. Maybe - just maybe - I have a "secret" flag somewhere from development that just isn't there in deployment which then causes it to malfunction on your systems.

What I *can* do is make such a pinfall chance very rare - or configurable.
Rick GarrardPosted on 09/01/04 at 15:01:23

configureable would be good.   In an old school WWF circuit, one wouldn't have a figure four being a pinning move, as it was a submission hold primarily, whereas with an old school NWA circuit, the pinfall would be turned on because Flair and Windham and Rhodes all were successful using the figure four as a pinning maneuver.  So configureable would indeed be the way to go.
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/01/04 at 17:13:04

Now you finally believe me.  Excellent.  Maybe we can knock out this problem. :)

In my view, any chance of a guaranteed pin is too much.  I've tried setting the pinfall in submission seed to 500 or 1000 with Tweakcirc SE, but it still produced the unfair pins far more often than seemed fair - in other words, people who used that sort of move rarely lost.

Ideally, if you can't isolate the problem (and that's entirely possible since it doesn't happen on your computer, although you might be able to encounter it if you download a fresh version you haven't used for development and install it), it'd be nice to be able to globally disable pinfalls in submissions without having to search through the move database.

Oh, the same behavior occurs for submission moves where you can pin yourself, if that helps at all.  They're just much less common.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Oliver CoppPosted on 09/03/04 at 15:19:57

It's the same logic, so if you're having one problem, you're automatically also going to have the other.

BTW, I've done quite a few clean installs over the past several months and have yet to see this happen - ever. Not on my laptop, not on my wife's and not on any of the other PCs in our house. That's the weird part...
americamamushiPosted on 09/03/04 at 16:09:46

Oliver, it's prolly because TNM7 doesn't hate you like it tends to hate us... or at least not as much ;D
Critic of the DawnPosted on 09/03/04 at 17:02:00

(Laughs) Of course it hasn't misbehaved! You're its Daddy, and it loves you!

Still, very strange.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
americamamushiPosted on 09/03/04 at 17:09:50

Can't you all just picture this scene?

*TNM7 does something bad*

Oliver:  I brought you into this world and I can take you out!


;Dlmao ;D
AnubisPosted on 09/04/04 at 00:08:34

Actually, I have the same problem. I even have the pinfall in submission seed set to 500. The pin attempts don't happen as often now, but EVERY SINGLE TIME the attempt actually does happens, it ALWAYS results in a pin.

It's not just the Figure-Four, either, it's all submission moves that allow a pin.

Oliver, would it help if I or some of the others would send you our TNM folders?
Some GuyPosted on 09/07/04 at 16:40:25

On 09/01/04 at 17:13:04, Critic of the Dawn wrote:
Ideally, if you can't isolate the problem (and that's entirely possible since it doesn't happen on your computer, although you might be able to encounter it if you download a fresh version you haven't used for development and install it), it'd be nice to be able to globally disable pinfalls in submissions without having to search through the move database.

Oh, the same behavior occurs for submission moves where you can pin yourself, if that helps at all. They're just much less common.

Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
I would second that idea, it would be a good work around, and even a feature for people that don't like the pin in submission idea (after all it's called so inconsistently in wrestling) .
John ProulxPosted on 09/20/04 at 00:15:43

I assume this is an ongoing issue, but this just occurred in the middle of a match I'm running:

AJ Darkk catches Dave Lawrence in a figure-four leglock.
Dave Lawrence's shoulders are on the mat.
Rudy Charles counts: One, two, shoulder up.
So it is working for me, at least in this instance.
AnubisPosted on 09/20/04 at 08:34:59

It's an ongoing issue.  I have yet to see a kickout in any submission in my TNM, and that's over hundreds of matches run.

Oliver, got any clue what's causing it?